Chieftain: Ramako Sun's Light and Rat Cage interaction

When using the rat cage + eye of innocence combo with the chieftain node Ramako, Sun's Light it appears that vaal molten shell isn't procing nearly as much as without it. I'm uncertain if it's a bug with the physical damage to fire conversion and the rat cage's fire damage to physical conversion interacting incorrectly or if it's intended.
Last bumped on Jan 8, 2019, 3:03:50 AM
I am also having this problem, shame i didn't see this post before dumping a whole bunch of currency into a bugged interaction and a few lvl 20 gems into a Hungry Loop for VMS...

My character is Cast-on-Ignite Chieftain with Martyr & Eye of Innocence, Sunspite, The Rat Cage and Ramako, Sun's Light ascendancy for unaffected by ignite.

It appears that a "conversion" loop is happening with The Rat Cage and the Ascendancy point in question. 10% of of the 100 damage from EoI is converted to physical damage, which is then converted back to fire damage and the Vaal Molten Shell proc never triggers.

Just to be sure, i specced out of Ramako ascendancy and just like that, the combo worked and i was melting bosses in seconds.

Please GGG, make the damage taken from The Rat Cage FINAL and unable to ping-pong back and forth from the damage taken originally. (EDIT - After searching, reading and talking it over with others any shifts in damage taken type happen simultaneously so by the game's rules, the 10 physical damage from EoI should be hitting us as physical damage)

For now this build will be shelved (or maybe turned into JUGG) as the other ascendancy point that is actually useful for chieftain is totems and i don't use any :(

P.S. a 7th single-path node for Chieftain would be super nice, perhaps focused around ignite. I miss the chance to ignite bonuses you used to get, despite how much fun i am having with this guy.
Last edited by Vakyoom on May 22, 2018, 11:22:59 AM
While there seems there could be some bug here, it should not be a conversion loop.

From the wiki:
On the receiving side, damage from hits may be taken as a different type.[1] This is done before any sort of mitigation. It is important to note that this is not damage conversion.[2][3] The shifted part of damage does not retain its original damage property so it won't get mitigated either twice or by the more favorable method. For example, if some of the incoming damage is shifted to or from physical, the after-shift value is used in the armour calculation.

Damage taken as is calculated simultaneously, this means that the incoming damage can be shifted to any other type of damage. For example The Rat Cage has #% of Fire Damage taken as Physical Damage, this modifier wouldn't have worked if it was a converted to-process.[4]

Since damage taken as does all calculations simultaneously this also means that the initial damage can not be shifted any further.[5]

If you take 100 fire damage, Rat Cage will take 10 of that as phys instead. Ramako's will not get involved, as there is no phys damage when "Damage Taken As" should come into effect. So while there is clearly a bug involved in Ramako's, Ramako's should not be converting anything to fire anyway.
This was my understanding of the situation as well. It seems rather weird because it should be a one-way trip when changed and that proves that its a bug and not some infinite loop feature that shouldn't exist.

It's good to have another brain helping on the subject, thanks for the response.
Last edited by Vakyoom on May 22, 2018, 7:28:54 AM
Ok i have some evidence of the bug in a couple of gifs for your viewing pleasure.

The first gif is without Ramako, Sun's Light allocated. You can see how often VMS procs by the blurry fireball moving across the screen.

For the second gif i put the point in to Ramako and proceed to use VMS on the big brown bear pack. The fireball visual is gone and the damage falls off very quickly, taking much longer to clear a much smaller pack. VMS should be proccing at least as often as my CWDT spells, but frankly it should have very minor visual change in function despite how small the packs are compared to the first gif.

Hope this helps people visualize the isues.

Here is my reddit post on the subject as well:
Last edited by Vakyoom on May 22, 2018, 10:08:33 AM
A possible alternative it to use a Scold's Bridle + Ramako instead of Eye of Innocence + The Rat Cage.
Last edited by gjennks1 on May 22, 2018, 5:41:17 PM
While i don't mind using Scold's Bridle, it doesn't get my nearly as many hits as EoI can achieve.

Also, Scolds + Ramako doesn't do anything special for VMS, you take 10% of phys as fire.

I just want the node to function without breaking my build. That 3% life regen will let me run RF more easily for bigger VMS damage.

I did manage to hit lvl 90 in flashback finally so there's that. Multi-phase bosses, be damned!

Can't wait for Vaal changes in 3.3 so i hope this is figured out by then!
The reason I suggested Scold's Bridle is if you are using cyclone while using VMS as you spend mana for cyclone Scold's Bridle will deal phys damage to you for each cyclone tick, with Ramako 10% of this phys damage will become fire damage triggering the 2% regen.
I know what you meant but i already get the 2% regen from the Eye of Innocence. That and Scold's doesn't self-hit nearly often enough to be useful or reliable for the way i want things to work. Also dont forget that Scold's can never self ignite because the damage wasn't fire originally. Funky rules but i see why.

While i appreciate the idea, it'd be a good idea to stick to the bug report and all that, thanks though! :)
Last edited by Vakyoom on May 29, 2018, 8:28:47 PM
Still having this issue. :(
Commenting to hopefully put some attention on this bug.
Would really like to continue playing the build.

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