PvP and Sarn Arena are very unfair and unbalanced

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Head_Less wrote:

OP is right, elemental penetration should be capped at 50-60% and projectile distance reviewed or damage nerfed at 50% when 1 screen away.

Yes, but it is not enough. It just make one-shot kill become 2-shot. (Maybe they still can one-shot you)
You still can't see your enemy before you being killed.

Elemental penetration should be nerfed more. And distance penalty should depend on distance between you and your targets. More distance, more penalty.

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Márkusz wrote:

The problem with penetration is it's availability of it and it's counters among builds:

Sources:

• Support gem 37-39% for only one element, for any skill
• Boots enchant 8-10% for all elements, for any skill, countered by micro
• Vessel of Vinktar 10-15% for only lightning, for any skill
• Passives 5-14%:
  • Forces of nature 6% all elements, for only attack skills
  • Arcing blows, Fangs of frost, Lava lash 8% for each element, for only attack skills
  • Minor nodes at templar and witch 2% for all elements, 3% for one element, for any skill
• Ascendencies, 10-25%:
  • Elementalist 25%, conditional, for any skill, sustain for one element is easy, for all elements it's rather hard
  • Hierophant 20% for all elements, for any skill, with major support gem limitation
  • Pathfinder 10% for all elements, for any skill, unconditional
  • Saboteur 10% for all elements, for any skill (class is strongly trap&mine only however), unconditional
  • Few other classes 5-10% for one/all elements, for any skill, but lower class efficiency
• Sambar sceptre 6-12% for all elements, for any skill but mostly casters
• Agnerod staff 20% for lightning only, for any skill but mostly casters

Summing up all the above, and keeping in mind that penetration is one of the highest damage multpliers available compared to their investment costs, stacking it or lacking it (getting countered) creates a huge contrast between players, and pushes the meta towards builds that stack the most.

Conclusion: GGG provided too many sources of penetration and a too limited source of hard counter for them unequally among builds and player budgets, without even keeping PvP in mind.

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ironstove wrote:

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Marxone wrote:

Leave PvP as is, it's stupid and nobody plays it and those who play it find it entertaining how unbalanced it is.

Having hard counters is amazing.

Only thing related to PvP that interest me is Leo Hideout and the tedious way to level this master.

You can create some full screen mine extravaganza that will rape everything it touches from 2 screens over, but those are the niche builds that are fun to play :)

Oh, look a guy who doesn't play PVP talking about how PVP is totally fine i.e. I don't care if it's broken, I don't use it so please don't fix it. LOLOL.

Why are you even posting in this thread?

I do play PvP, often because of boredom of mapping. Regular 1v1 on temp leagues. + daily if it's in Sarn, i tend to stay and just wipe the floor with all the miners that are trying to be the most obnoxious people, sitting at the middle just keeping mines up.

There were stupid builds, like knock back Voltaxic Spark which killed you 3 seconds after start of the round and kept you lock in place without any possibility to do anything without unwavering stance / shock immunity.
CI as hard counter for any chaos based builds is also fun - ye, i try to clear Hall of Grandmasters from time to time. Usually fail horribly.

Any balance is not my interest, i have fun anyway :)

Never gone in pvp arena, just regularly complete the hall of grand master for fun .
And to be one shotted by this ridiculous "danzig" exile with lightning penetration build just let me see how unbalanced must be the pvp .
Penetration should be completely disabled in pvp, cause right now its just beyond ridiculous .

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Penetration should be completely disabled in pvp

Penetration is fine.
It's the damage killing you, not the penetration mechanic.

Each % of penetration has a lot higher 'weight' than any other source of damage increase; so, if a build can use dual Sambar's, has 10%+ penetration from ascendancy, boots enchant, crafted belt etc. it able to reach a lot higher PvP DPS than any other.

PvP damage scaling currently using pre-1.3 patch formula which could be called as 'a bit outdated'. Since 1.3 we got jewels, Elemental Overload, Winter Spirit, Hrimsorrow, Sambar Sceptes, Skin of the Loyal, Essence crafted unique affixes, The Wise Oak, The Pandemonius, Pathfinder, Elementalist etc. The average PvP damage has been at least doubled! But we still have the same eHP/effective damage reduction as in 1.3 with just few exceptions like The Surrender, Mistress of Sacrifice and Fortitude.

Removing/disabling/nerfing penetration has a terrible side effect - stacking maximum resistances with non linear effect scaling, believe me, being unable to kill opponent (because it has 98%+ res and some flat damage reduction) feels just as bad as getting oneshot from offscreen.

Leave elemental penetration alone, you don't understand what you're talking about.

For example the mentioned miners are so 'good' not because of penetration, but only because Remote Mine override T to 0.9, since 1.3 they got Minefield, Saboteur, Detonate Mines and triple-buffed Glacial Cascade, so they able to spam the spell that hits 2-3 times per cast at 8+ casts per second rate. Proper T value for Remote Mine should be 0.03 for this case.

No need to turn some mechanics upside down, everything can be adjusted, everything should be adjusted.

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smtad wrote:

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almostdead wrote:

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bwang008 wrote:

Chaos wrecks most ppl, but tickles CI builds, low life gets wrecked by culling strike lol.
Also once you get close you have to deal with immortal call making them immune to your damage

seems perfect though - each builds having their counters.

Not really. Elemental penetration and range damages have no counters.

No matter how much elemental resistances you have, you'll still be one-shot with elemental penetration damages where the enemy is outside your screen.

So, this is my post point:
1. Neutralize elemental penetration in PvP and Arena (Since there is no any physical penetration or physical resistance reduction methods)

2. Distance penalty.

ahm, i'm not even worried about distance, its just that some builds are immortal and do infinite ammounts of damage...... that i'm more worried about. Check those lame pathfinders with that explosive arrow build, its soooooo lame.
And good thing i have 30% more damage at far distance so even with your stupid nerf i wouldn't be affected XD
Also a cyclone dot build killed my ass a lot, and i'm a very, very ranged skill.

And dots/chaos damage being usncaled; i laughed at gods powers that granted DoT resistance, but boy, it's almost a must against some builds, and even then they barely make any difference xD

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g64 wrote:

Removing/disabling/nerfing penetration has a terrible side effect - stacking maximum resistances with non linear effect scaling, believe me, being unable to kill opponent (because it has 98%+ res and some flat damage reduction) feels just as bad as getting oneshot from offscreen.

Leave elemental penetration alone, you don't understand what you're talking about.

That is only true if you decide not to deal with retarded tank builds. Nerfing elemental penetration should also be coupled with nerfing players regen (adding -75% es regen to frost bomb for exemple).

Most of tank build pre 2.0 were doing 0 damage, 0. Even if you could not kill them, they were just here to stand still and do nothing anyway. The new dot skills coupled with rip grand spectrum and penetration items became the reason tank build passed from useless troll crap to effective builds.

Take care of dot skills without T-value (SR/blight) and those builds become useless again.

Penetration is a big problem when you look at melee vs ranged. LA-prism+global pen will 1 shot you 2screen away while pre 2.0 it was not possible. The rise of pen on tree and gear created a bigger gap between melee and ranged.

If the only reason to keep penetration uncapped is to kill useless retarded tank build, it is not a good reason.

Cap penetration to acceptable amount to put in line ranged vs melee disparity then give T-value to dots skills/new skills and you will achieve playable pvp.

Not nerfing pen for ranged toon to be able to kill not moving trolls will not make things better.

well, when you have classes like inquisitor that completely ignore elemental resistances.... I don't really see the point in complaining about nerfing penetration/making it less available.

What I'd instead like to see introduced is something like a elemental immortal call, to even the playing field.

If you nerf pen, there are so many other mechanics that are just as bad and people will complain to have those put on the chopping block next.

The only real way to balance PVP is to add more OP mechanics into the game to counter some of the already existing OP ones.

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The_Risen wrote:

ahm, i'm not even worried about distance, its just that some builds are immortal and do infinite ammounts of damage...... that i'm more worried about. Check those lame pathfinders with that explosive arrow build, its soooooo lame.
And good thing i have 30% more damage at far distance so even with your stupid nerf i wouldn't be affected XD

If you stand out of my screen to attack me, you roughly in a distance of 10 times of 2-handed weapon.

With my "stupid nerf", you only deal 1.3 x 0.1 = 0.13 original damage.

I think your 30% more damage is much stupid than my nerf. XD

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g64 wrote:

Removing/disabling/nerfing penetration has a terrible side effect - stacking maximum resistances with non linear effect scaling, believe me, being unable to kill opponent (because it has 98%+ res and some flat damage reduction) feels just as bad as getting oneshot from offscreen.

No, it is impossible to make all elemental resistances be 90+%.

So they're always have counters. Besides, you have curses (and EE with some special BDs) to deal with them.

Using Malachai's Artifice is able to use EE for any builds.