When will you REWORK Reflect?

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Nephalim wrote:

GGG was kind to us by nerfing crit multi to reduce the burden of reflect.

Praise GGG.

GJ GGG

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To all ppl saying reflect is good because it punishes glass cannon, that is total bullshit because being a glass cannon is punishment enough to die in 1 hit from everything else, it doesn't need a foolproof mechanic that 100% kills you. That just limits build diversity to be tank with shitty DPS or delete character.

Also reflect is very biast mechanic that only kills ranged characters because of offscreen, at least put a large proximity aura on all reflect mobs so people can actually react when they see them and not die an unavoidable offscreen death.

.

Now, I have no real strong opinion either way on this issue; sure I think reflect is a challenging mechanic to deal with when approaching it with certain builds. However, it is generally okay on single rare mobs if you have the physical reflexes, attention span and hand-eye coordination to spot, and react to, the visual indicator which appears beneath a mob on the screen.

In the vast majority of cases with melee and ranged builds both, you WILL have this information presented to you, meaning any death caused by it is purely your fault, and if you can’t react fast enough to play your build then play a slower build more suited to your skill level as a player.

Now the issue of offscreen builds.

I agree that reflect impacts these infinitely more than onscreen builds, and it should do. Without a game mechanic to punish this style of gameplay (Which circumvents many other gameplay mechanics designed to impose challenge on normal onscreen builds) offscreen gameplay would make you near immortal, trivializing the game at end tier and vastly narrowing the scope of meta builds. That and besides, GGG want you to be able to see what you are fighting and indulge in the artwork and animation of the game, not just watch your character endlessly using the same skill combo on an empty screen while you listen for your loot filter noises to tell you that something has dropped which you need to pick up.

But here's the real kicker.

The game is NOT balanced around the average, or even above average player making it to level 100. Which is why the true endgame is available much earlier than that. The option to push to level 100 is there for the dedicated, and beside a few stat points minorly increasing your clearspeed or survivability, there is very little benefit to pushing that high. OP here complains about either the fact that he can't reach 100 with a build that doesn't have the survivability to deal with reflect before its humanly possible to react to it (Or he isn't fast enough to do so) or that reflect can't be dealt with by an offscreen build; all this while specifically stating that the meta solution to getting level 100 is either to turtle up with survivability or get carried by a group (It's meta for a reason!)

Now I understand the argument here is that OP doesn't want to use these methods to hit level 100, and wants to do it his own way. So my question here is; Why are you complaining about a self-imposed restriction which deliberately makes the game harder for you by arguing that there's a mechanic in the game designed to stop people doing what you are doing thus making things harder?

You are literally complaining that you are making your own life harder whilst arguing you want your experience to be harder.

On a final note, I agree that reflect is not a perfect mechanic. I think it needs to be removed from map mods, as having all mobs reflect damage at you is insanity and this does fall under the argument of "Very few builds can deal with it without massive leech". But as the game stands currently, you have the option to skip reflect maps, and reflect rares serve their purpose fine with lots of visual clarity allowing you to deal with them using your skill as a player, or be punished by them for using a build which trivializes 95% of other content.




Just my 2 cents.

I don't care if reflect mobs have instant delete account on hit ...as long as you can see them and not hit them from offscreen.

...but that is impossible as a ranged character and completely unfair and unavoidable mechanic

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I did 100 with arc, so what?
and, btw, if you die for a single rare with reflect it's only your fault

edit: the only char I use which have troubles with reflect is my RT full block gladiator because it deals over 60k with a single hit (still I don't oneshot myself)

Wow, some wall of text responses/discussion/arguments so far.

Simply put: I feel reflect is a lazy mechanic added by GGG to add balance. As with all of their game balancing, it's broken. Of course it's not game breaking, but it's a lazy mechanic that no one enjoys. Or perhaps you'd like to prove me wrong and tell me how much you enjoy taking damage from your own attack/spell (or that of minions/totems)?

"

KillerFit wrote:

"

Zionyaru wrote:

Now, I have no real strong opinion either way on this issue; sure I think reflect is a challenging mechanic to deal with when approaching it with certain builds. However, it is generally okay on single rare mobs if you have the physical reflexes, attention span and hand-eye coordination to spot, and react to, the visual indicator which appears beneath a mob on the screen.

In the vast majority of cases with melee and ranged builds both, you WILL have this information presented to you, meaning any death caused by it is purely your fault, and if you can’t react fast enough to play your build then play a slower build more suited to your skill level as a player.

Now the issue of offscreen builds.

I agree that reflect impacts these infinitely more than onscreen builds, and it should do. Without a game mechanic to punish this style of gameplay (Which circumvents many other gameplay mechanics designed to impose challenge on normal onscreen builds) offscreen gameplay would make you near immortal, trivializing the game at end tier and vastly narrowing the scope of meta builds. That and besides, GGG want you to be able to see what you are fighting and indulge in the artwork and animation of the game, not just watch your character endlessly using the same skill combo on an empty screen while you listen for your loot filter noises to tell you that something has dropped which you need to pick up.

But here's the real kicker.

The game is NOT balanced around the average, or even above average player making it to level 100. Which is why the true endgame is available much earlier than that. The option to push to level 100 is there for the dedicated, and beside a few stat points minorly increasing your clearspeed or survivability, there is very little benefit to pushing that high. OP here complains about either the fact that he can't reach 100 with a build that doesn't have the survivability to deal with reflect before its humanly possible to react to it (Or he isn't fast enough to do so) or that reflect can't be dealt with by an offscreen build; all this while specifically stating that the meta solution to getting level 100 is either to turtle up with survivability or get carried by a group (It's meta for a reason!)

Now I understand the argument here is that OP doesn't want to use these methods to hit level 100, and wants to do it his own way. So my question here is; Why are you complaining about a self-imposed restriction which deliberately makes the game harder for you by arguing that there's a mechanic in the game designed to stop people doing what you are doing thus making things harder?

You are literally complaining that you are making your own life harder whilst arguing you want your experience to be harder.

On a final note, I agree that reflect is not a perfect mechanic. I think it needs to be removed from map mods, as having all mobs reflect damage at you is insanity and this does fall under the argument of "Very few builds can deal with it without massive leech". But as the game stands currently, you have the option to skip reflect maps, and reflect rares serve their purpose fine with lots of visual clarity allowing you to deal with them using your skill as a player, or be punished by them for using a build which trivializes 95% of other content.




Just my 2 cents.

If you have read my original post at the beginning,you would see that my complaint ad more to do with GGG killing the diversity in which you can achieve lvl 100 in the game!As i stated before,lvl 100 is possible only for a hand few builds OR passive play in a party!Now i want you to tell me do either of these play styles present any challenge or interest you?The other thing you obvously DIDNT bother to read is the Post Title which states REWORK!!!!!!! not REMOVE,i would rather you READ what i wrote or you DONT tell lies about what i written!My Build is by ALL means NOT a glass cannon,and i stil die to off screen reflect,that tells me that the problem does NOT lie in the damage it self thus in the mechanic!Thats my point!I enjoy a death in which i HAD control on and lost it OR it happened by my mistake!The same thing can be said about Vollitile mechanic!In your logic we should complaint about it,its there so we should deal with it,Oh w8 its getting reworked,strange why?Just because a thing is in the game doesent mean its there for a reason,and it doesent mean its perfect!I am not against the reflected damage,i am against in the way it is presented in the game and in the way it impacts the leveling process!I strongly doubt that you have a lvl 100 character and that you ever will,if you make the effort of achieving 100,spend the time and the nerves,when you die to something offscreen and you loose 5 hours of solid grinding the game becomes so called PUNISHING!Thus it takes out the enjoyment and replaces it with anger and negative feelings!After all we are here to enjoy games and play them with interest!I suggest you inform your self in YouTube what and when a game becomes punishing to a player,and than you will see a great close ressemblence to the reflect mechanic i am talking about and the way you die to it!Now if reflect was a debuff Dot like bleeding for example or poison,and you could react to it an counter it with something or if a reflect mob left you with 1 life/Es and it forces you to gtfout of there and recover than i will understand the mechanic itself,BUT 1 shotting your self to something you are meant to kill with 1 shot with no way of defence and reacting is punishing to a player!I suggest you think about what i tolf you and understand that nothing is perfect and some thing need reworking,others dont,some have reasons and others dont!Reflect has NOT either of those!

So in other words you; are making baseless assumptions about my own game experience, getting angry for nothing rather than just having a calm discussion, and also misinterpreting what I wrote.

First of all, lets clear this up, I at no point in my post stated that you were absolutely using a glass cannon build. You didn’t make this clear yourself which is why I said glass cannon OR a build that spends the majority of its time doing damage off-screen, in this reply you confirmed that your issue lay in the off-screen section which means what I said was perfectly valid based on the information I had at the time.

Next, the diversity in builds for reaching level 100 never existed in the first place as far as I am aware (Barring overpowered builds which were later nerfed, but these will always be the exception to the rule.), so your argument that GGG are attempting to kill the build diversity is moot. Amusingly enough the fact that, in your own words “lvl 100 is possible only for a hand few builds OR passive play in a party!” [sic] is completely reasonable in game design terms. If you refer back to the paragraph I wrote concerning the nuances of achieving level 100 and the diminishing returns of tangible gameplay rewards that this provides, and read it, you would understand that this very combination of factors is what allows GGG to make this process extremely difficult to optimise and execute. Level 100 in all its regards, is simply a title displaying how patient you are; in actual gameplay terms, it doesn’t distinguish you all that much from the average player 10 levels lower than you who has comparable gear.

Next, in answer to your question: “Now I want you to tell me do either of these play styles present any challenge or interest you?”, and my answer is Yes and No respectively. The challenge is having the patience to deal with these terrible options and no they don’t interest me. I have no interest whatsoever in pushing past level 90 where my decently geared toons are, and any level up I do get is just a bonus on top. Regardless, if I wanted to push to 100 for some crazed reason I would absolutely go with one of these options to get the process out of the way with ASAP. Like I said before, these are the meta options, and if you want to do it your own way then that’s your own call, but you live with the consequences of doing so.

Next, I never said remove reflect from rare mobs. The section about removing reflect from maps is my own opinion and has no relation to you whatsoever, your entire argument is centred around reflect on rare mobs (At least I would hope so considering how simple the answer would be if you are actually talking about maps) and so that’s what I’m basing my discussion around. In fact, quite to the contrary I would like to see reflect stay just as it is, specifically to punish off-screen builds (Which you would have realised if you actually thought about what I wrote.) If off screen builds dominate the metagame, then guess what, we as a community would take the best option, thus culling build diversity which is bad in the long run for everyone.

I also don’t see where your assumption that I have no idea what frustration is came from. I’m not cool as a cucumber 100% of my time playing the game, I get annoyed sometimes too; and I get how it feels. But it’s never the end of the world. If I feel a mechanic is unfair then I’ll do some research on it, mull over how it can be changed and have a good discussion with some people about it.

Blind seething rage is not the road to achieving change, and I am more than happy to change my opinion on matters given explanations which I accept as truthful and meaningful to gameplay without making another aspect even more broken.