acrobatics and phase acrobatics

Are these 2 passive abilities worth it? 30% chance to dodge attacks and 30% chance to dodge spells. Are these as (currentDodge + 30) or (currentDodge * 1.3)? Trying to build a double dagger/high crit chance/crit dmg/physical damage with evade.
Last bumped on May 19, 2017 3:37:30 PM
It´s worth it unless you´re going to play CI but you need high life pool anyway.
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Completed 24 ChallengesRakiii wrote:
It´s worth it unless you´re going to play CI but you need high life pool anyway.


Being brand new I am not sure what CI is, do you mind explaining?
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Chaos_Inoculation

So don´t bother with CI then and stick to life.
Oh interesting I have seen many people use that, does CI have anything to do with evade/dodge? Or should i still get evade and dodge.

edit: oh i see if i go for CI, getting acrobatics and phase acrobatics will reduce my shield too.
Last edited by Furor_Dei on May 17, 2017 5:47:24 PM
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Completed 17 ChallengesFuror_Dei wrote:
Are these 2 passive abilities worth it? 30% chance to dodge attacks and 30% chance to dodge spells. Are these as (currentDodge + 30) or (currentDodge * 1.3)? Trying to build a double dagger/high crit chance/crit dmg/physical damage with evade.


Dodge stats are additive (currentDodge + 30).

Note that Evasion and Dodge are completely separate mechanics and function slightly differently. Evasion
  • results from comparing enemy Accuracy Rating to your Evasion Rating
  • is periodic (the developer who explained it called it an entropy system) after the first attempted hit, so for example with 75% chance to evade, if you get hit once, you are guaranteed to evade three times, but after evading three times, you are guaranteed to get hit on the next hit attempt
  • Never applies to Spells

In contrast, dodge is a flat chance, fully pseudorandom, and has a Spell version as well as an Attack versions.

I find it a bit interesting that you mention currentDodge because sources of Dodge are few and far between in the game, so I wanted to make sure you weren't thinking it stacked additively onto Evasion :P
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Completed 24 Challengesadghar wrote:
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Completed 17 ChallengesFuror_Dei wrote:
Are these 2 passive abilities worth it? 30% chance to dodge attacks and 30% chance to dodge spells. Are these as (currentDodge + 30) or (currentDodge * 1.3)? Trying to build a double dagger/high crit chance/crit dmg/physical damage with evade.


Dodge stats are additive (currentDodge + 30).

Note that Evasion and Dodge are completely separate mechanics and function slightly differently. Evasion
  • results from comparing enemy Accuracy Rating to your Evasion Rating
  • is periodic (the developer who explained it called it an entropy system) after the first attempted hit, so for example with 75% chance to evade, if you get hit once, you are guaranteed to evade three times, but after evading three times, you are guaranteed to get hit on the next hit attempt
  • Never applies to Spells

In contrast, dodge is a flat chance, fully pseudorandom, and has a Spell version as well as an Attack versions.

I find it a bit interesting that you mention currentDodge because sources of Dodge are few and far between in the game, so I wanted to make sure you weren't thinking it stacked additively onto Evasion :P


Thank you for the in depth response! I did read the defense mechanic is a 3 layered system of evade > dodge > block. If you could explain (or link) the entropy system for evade I would like to understand it better; is it always based off of sets of 4 attacks? I used currentDodge, because it has to exist to add to it even if it is 0 (duh). Thanks again for looking out for me to not confuse mechanics on my first character.
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Completed 17 ChallengesFuror_Dei wrote:
If you could explain (or link) the entropy system for evade I would like to understand it better; is it always based off of sets of 4 attacks?


Why not both? :P I really like the way the entropy/periodic system is set up mathematically (feels clever to me) so I like to try explaining it too.

Here is a link to the original explanation as well as a quote for convenience.

Original explanation
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Completed 1 ChallengeMark_GGG wrote:
So I've been asked for details of evasion over PM, and don't want to have to keep giving single replies to more people in future, so since I don't think it's all been laid out in one place yet, it will be here.

Evasion in PoE is not fully random.

Each entity in the world contains an 'evasion entropy' value, between 1 and 100. The higher this value is, the more likely they are to be hit by the next attack. The initial value is random.
Every time something attacks you, they calculate their chance to hit as a percentage. That value is added to your evasion entropy. If the result exceeds 100, you're hit, and 100 is subtracted from the value. If the value hasn't reached 100, you're not hit.

Before anyone starts clamouring that they're not getting their actual chance to hit/evade, let's examine this mechanic in a bit more detail. Take the simple example of 100% chance to hit. Since you always add 100 to the entropy, it'll always exceed 100, and thus always hit, which is correct. The case of 0% chance to hit can similarly be trivially shown to be correct.
So let's look at 50% chance to hit. Since the initial value is random from 1-100, there's a 50% chance that the initial entropy value is higher than 50%, in which case adding the 50 from chance to hit will exceed 100 and thus hit, and a 50% chance the value is 50% or less, in which case adding 50 will not exceed 100, and thus not hit. So the first hit has a 50% chance to hit, as it should.
The second hit also has a 50% chance to hit, but will never hit if the first one does - provided you're only getting hit by things with 50% chance to hit you, you'll evade every second attack, and be hit by the others.
Let's say the initial entropy was 42. The first hit increases this to 92, and misses. The second raises it to 142, hitting, and then subtracts 100 from the value, leaving it back at 42.
I'll leave other percentages as an exercise for the reader, but they all work out - if an attack has 25% chance to hit you, every fourth attack will hit, and so on.

This is the mechanic by which streakiness is removed from evasion - it removes the possibility of failing to evade happening to come up several times in a row due to bad luck. Each attack has the correct chance to hit, and will hit you just as often as you'd expect in the average case using a purely random system, but the possibility of occasional but devastating non-average results - such as being hit by four consecutive attacks with only 10% chance to hit each - have been eliminated.

Some caveats:
1) If an attack would crit you, evasion is tested a second time, and if you evade, the hit is downgraded to a non-crit (it does not miss, since it's already tested for that and hit). This roll is purely random and does not increase the entropy value - it just generates a number from 1 to 100 and compares to the chance to hit. Details of why are in the spoiler.
Spoiler
Given that this, if it occurs, would always be the next evasion test after the one to see if it hit, then if this did use the entropy value, then having above 50% chance to evade would make you immune to critical strikes, since you can't fail two successive evasion checks on entropy if their chance to hit is below 50%. If you were hit, that means you just failed the evasion check to evade the attack, and thus the entropy is such that the second test would be unable to hit you, and the crit would downgrade, whereas if it failed to hit in the first place, then critting or not is irrelevant.
While the concept of being so evasive you can't be crit is cool, the above behaviour is undesirable, and so checking chance to hit for the purposes of confirming a crit should actually stay a crit does not test entropy. Testing chance to hit for the purposes of actually hitting is always done via the entropy value.


2) Whenever the entropy value would be used, if a certain short amount of time has passed since the last time this occurred, a new random initial value is chosen. This prevents the player from waiting near a weak enemy until it hits (leaving them on a low entropy value), then running to a boss fight, to start knowing they'll have the maximum number of attacks evaded before they get hit. Entropy will perform it's function as long as you're continuously being attacked, but don't expect to transfer it from fight to fight.


And here is my explanation, which uses some different math for the same practical result but puts the concept in terms I find more understandable:

adghar previous explanation
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Completed 24 Challengesadghar wrote:

As for entropy based, that is a term from when the game developer originally explained it. I would prefer the term periodic as it is more understandable to the general public.

Note that the entropy system applies only to Evasion's Chance to Hit roll and not to any other pseudorandom processes like Dodge or Block.

Imagine you have a "balance shield" whose value is randomly generated from 0 to 99 when you start combat, where 0 means your character is caught off guard and 99 means your character is prepared to fight. Then, when an enemy attempts to hit you, it takes its Chance to Hit stat and applies it as damage to your balance shield. If the result is zero or positive, you Evade. If the result is negative, you fail to evade, but regain +100 balance shield.

The practical effect of laying out the numbers like this is that you get predictable patterns, like if the enemy had 33% chance to hit you will see Hit, Miss, Miss, Hit, Miss, Miss, Hit, Miss, Miss and so on. The most notable of these effects is when an entity is Blinded, which inflicts 50% less Chance to Hit, meaning targets are guaranteed to Evade at least every other Attack (alternating), probably getting some extra Evades in as well.

It's not as good as it sounds though because Spells, Damage over Time, and Secondary Damage all skip the Evasion check as they are not Attacks :p

Entropy example for fun:
You have 40% Chance to Evade (so enemy has 60% chance to hit)

You enter battle having rolled a 42.
42 - 60 = -18. Hit. -18 + 100 = 82.
82 - 60 = 22. Evade.
22 - 60 = -38. Hit. -38 + 100 = 62.
62 - 60 = 2. Evade.
2 - 60 = -58. Hit. -58 + 100 = 42.
42 - 60 = -18. Hit. -18 + 100 = 82.
82 - 60 = 22. Evade.
22 - 60 = -38. Hit. -38 + 100 = 62.
62 - 60 = 2. Evade.
2 - 60 = -58. Hit. -58 + 100 = 42.

And so on.


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Last edited by adghar on May 18, 2017 1:59:26 PM
they are worthy mostly because, what're the alternatives? armour? ES? For certain builds, aside of evasion all you can get is dodge and life pool, so you get them.
Acro/phase Acro are also very good while leveling. You pretty much feel immortal through normal act3 ->merc act3 with just those keynotes sufficient life and maxed resistances
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