Double dipping?

Is there a resource for an explanation on double dipping? Tried on the wiki and got nothing. Also, tried google and was confused by the explanations elsewhere. Can anyone help a noob (me) understand this concept?

Sure, double dipping on damage bonuses only really happens in one way in this game so far, and the devs have said they want to "address" it so it may be on the chopping block anyways.

Double dipping can only occur on what I call a Derived DoT, so called because it is a DoT whose base damage is based on an initial Hit.

You get double dipping when you have one bonus that applies to both the Hit and the DoT.

For example a single Poison stack usually deals 8% of initial Phys+Chaos as Chaos Damage over Time, per second.

So at 0 bonuses, deal 100 chaos damage in a hit, poison with it, and deal 8 chaos per second.

Then you get 100% more chaos damage bonus.

The hit becomes 200 chaos, which means the base poison is 16 per second, then the 16 per second gets the chaos bonus and becomes 32 chaos per second.

32 is 4 times 8, not 2, and you got there by applying "100% more" twice, hence double dipping.

EDIT: Currently the only derived DoTs are Poison, Bleeding, and Ignite. If you want to build around double dip I and others can provide further information on what bonuses can amd can't double dip with these.

Let me try and break it down for you.

Certain damage over time effects (poison, ignite, bleed) deal damage based on the damage of the hit that applied them. So for example, if you poison with a hit that deals 1000 physical damage then the poison will deal 80 damage per second (for 2 seconds), as its damage per stack is 8% of the physical and poison damage dealt by the hit that applied it.

If you then increase your physical damage, you indirectly increase the damage of the poison. Say you pick up 10% increased physical damage from the passive tree. Your initial hit now deals 1100 damage, and consequently the poison damage is now 88 per second.

However, what if you pick up a generic increased damage modifier instead? So 10% increased damage, instead of 10% increased physical damage. There's a rule that a modifier can never apply twice to the same instance of damage, but the poison is a separate instance of damage to the initial hit. So the initial hit still deals 1100 damage, but now the poison is dealing 88 * 1.1 = 97 damage per second.

That's the principle of double dipping. By picking up damage modifiers that apply both to your initial hit and to damage over time created by that hit, you can scale the damage over time to absurd values without losing initial hit damage.

EDIT: damn you adghar! :P

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viperesque wrote:

EDIT: damn you adghar! :P

Damn me to Malachai! But it's okay, at least your explanation compares it to the non-double dipping case, which should help in case my explanation wasn't enough.

thx for the clear explanations, guys

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adghar wrote:

the devs have said they want to "address" it so it may be on the chopping block anyways.

i just hope they don't nerf it before i get a chance to try burning vortex

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nealn wrote:

i just hope they don't nerf it before i get a chance to try burning vortex

If, well not exactly if - when they do remove double dipping they will have to buff Ignite base to compensate so you will still be able to build one. Sure, if the build double dipped to exploit proportions it probably won't be quite as good, but it should still be good.

Vortex even employs triple dipping - ie spell damage applying to ignite, which is far more offending than double dipping imo

An easy but bad solution to fix double dipping is make ignites relative to hp pool. But then cool shit like emberwake is gone.

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grepman wrote:

Vortex even employs triple dipping - ie spell damage applying to ignite, which is far more offending than double dipping imo

Technically that is just "double dip enabled for a bigger range of mods" - spell damage doesn't apply 3 times to the same damage packet, it only applies 2wice

but 2wice on Spell Damage is a lot more than the vast majority of other spells get for Ignite, which makes Vortex's design real lulzy