Getting a shavs makes me sad.

"

Well, yes they have been since sacrifice of the vaal, however they were much less abundant back then, because the related content is so much easier these days. Heck, I remember the days in which acuity sold for way over 30 exalteds.

I sold a pair for 120 ex.

"

What I was trying to say was, that mf as a mechanic is pretty much outdated, because the uber lab was basically the "mercy-kill". If you wanted the general drop rate to be lower, I would argue that nerfing the uber lab in regards to full key runs would also be a necessity, because otherwise people would farm the UL exclusively, and drop rate adjustments would be "outmaneuvered".

Not really, one requires pieces and doing a buffed boss on the days in which its possible and the other requires you building around certain uniques. MF isn't something necessary, nor worthwhile doing in the lab, so they don't conflict like you are thinking.

"

Well, I am not saying that the outcome was ideal, what I am saying is I can see that being the intention behind it. As I was saying, this needs to be done carefully, in order to not be too homogenized. Sure it's kind of concerning, and I do agree that it's not the perfect approach either. Really though, nobody plays POE because it's perfect, let's be honest here.

This is a true statement, my concern is its already crossed several thresholds that overall making pieces of the game far worst then they should be.

"

This is where I will argue that either GGG underestimates the player, or they were simply careless with the drop rate in the scriptorium. "Difficult" map rolls are subjective, but I can say for a fact that getting one card in 5 runs or so isn't right, especially when you get that card less often when running core, at least that's my experience so far, and it should definitely be the other way around. So yeah, the scriptorium drop rate needs a nerf for sure.

Well I dont get them in 1 in 5 runs, probably 1 in 20 or so, i've done a lot of those maps.

"

While I am still "pro-accessability", I feel confident in saying that this game doesn't respect/require actual skill anymore (not that I think it ever did so all that much), which is my biggest gripe with it. Your approach here might be to blame it almost exclusively on the drop-rates, because easier access to power makes gameplay easier, and I can agree to some extent. My take on it is that the game's balance so out of tune that the drop rates actually play a fairly minor role in comparison to the drop rates.

Somewhat agreeable, but you need to realize that builds require gear, ac classes and what not can only take a build so far, so you need the gear to "break" the game even further.

"

On the other hand though, did they really do more before? I don't believe so, to be honest. Races were more abundant back then, sure. Leagues however lasted longer periods of time, they are being released at a 33% higher rate than before. Adding new core-content? Heck, for how long have we been running merciless docks?! I think they are adding more these days than they did before: Act 4, lab, Shaper and guardians, lockstep, the trade improvements... I mean, come on, it's not as if there was barely anything happening as of late, but the things they do may feel "less dynamic" because the entirety of this game is "bigger" now, for lack of a better term.

There was at least a year of 3 month leagues "back in the day", not only that but they had TWICE the league designs and still did expansions and gave us act 4. Is the rate perhaps a bit faster now then back then, sure but additional acts IMO don't really add near the same level as improvements to the actual game.

Lockstep happened while act 4 did, still when they were doing 2 leagues AND races.

"

So for me finishing a build takes a long time anyways, because GGG, in their infinite wisdom, removed the eternal orb, because screw everyone who wants to craft reasonably. And don't get me started on the stupid reason they gave for the removal of it, because just thinking of this makes me want to puke so bad. Like, wtf? The eternal orb was such a good way of working towards something.

Im with you about the eternal orb, but they like the whole master craft thing.

"

This is due to the infancy of this game. Uniques are not what they should be. Skyforth's is one example: A motherlode of generic power, no strings attached. But I digress...

No regen, Kappa.

"

What I was going to say was that uniques have been handled the wrong way. When it comes to low-life, shav's is the go-to, Lorica is the band-aid/noobtrap. There is nothing inbetween that provides the same function. The lazy solution was upping the drop rate, to make shav's more available. The better solution would have been adding stepping stones inbetween those items, instead of upping the drops, hence a fated lorica would have been in order at the very least. But since we don't have the better solution, I prefer the lazy solution over having none at all.

The other solution was div cards, which enable people to piece "a piece of the item" no one NEEDS to go low life in order to make a build worth doing, especially now. People used to transition builds now they just grab generic nodes and use whatever skill takes the least investment in order to kill mobs

"

If decent stepping stones existed on the way to tier 1 uniques, I would be perfectly fine with having those uniques at a significantly lower drop-rate, and I think it's safe to say everyone else would have been okay with such a solution. Now we're at the point of no return, because woe is day they pulled back the drop-rates to where they were. I can see the shitstorm from a lightyear away. A missed opportunity for sure.

They could slowly return the drop rates to almost the previous rarity, giving people time to adjust.

"

Generally that is the case, so I am not even disputing that Perandus missed the mark that is the new economy, because the economy in perandus was just bonkers. My situation at that time was that perandus was just the happy-go-lucky-league that I needed. I don't disagree with you at all, just saying perandus was nice breather for me.

I guess its fine you enjoyed it and that people in general might have. The issue is people honestly it was a good league, which it was not.

"

See above, I agree, never said perandus was objectively great, I said I found it subjectively fun, because it was a change of pace that was so ridiculous that I couldn't help myself and had to giggle randomly when Cadiro offered me a coil for umpteenth time.

You too, hum.

"

and it very well could have been done better.

Which is the very purpose in which I started to reply to this thread.

What are you two even talking about <.<?

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Well, yes they have been since sacrifice of the vaal, however they were much less abundant back then, because the related content is so much easier these days. Heck, I remember the days in which acuity sold for way over 30 exalteds.

I sold a pair for 120 ex.

Yeah that was probably back when they were like fresh out the box. It was at that time that I didn't have enough time to concern myself with the top-end uniques, or grind end-game content either.

Really though, about half a year ago you could still ask 40ex for them, and get paid.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

What I was trying to say was, that mf as a mechanic is pretty much outdated, because the uber lab was basically the "mercy-kill". If you wanted the general drop rate to be lower, I would argue that nerfing the uber lab in regards to full key runs would also be a necessity, because otherwise people would farm the UL exclusively, and drop rate adjustments would be "outmaneuvered".

Not really, one requires pieces and doing a buffed boss on the days in which its possible and the other requires you building around certain uniques. MF isn't something necessary, nor worthwhile doing in the lab, so they don't conflict like you are thinking.

Pathfinder BV makes it possible any day you want. In case you're not running that build you can use the days in which you want to stay away for racking up offerings, and grind them down in one go when given the chance. So in the "long run", the random aspects of the uber lab don't matter at all. For early on in the league it's a different deal.

Sure you don't run IIR/IIQ builds in the lab, but the drops in the lab compete with what mf-builds could loot outside of it on the same market, that's what I'm saying. So if you make the farming outside of the lab less attractive... Well, I guess you can see where that's going, if the lab remains untouched...

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

This is where I will argue that either GGG underestimates the player, or they were simply careless with the drop rate in the scriptorium. "Difficult" map rolls are subjective, but I can say for a fact that getting one card in 5 runs or so isn't right, especially when you get that card less often when running core, at least that's my experience so far, and it should definitely be the other way around. So yeah, the scriptorium drop rate needs a nerf for sure.

Well I dont get them in 1 in 5 runs, probably 1 in 20 or so, i've done a lot of those maps.

I can tell you for a fact that I stayed away from that map as much as possible, because I don't like the layout of it. I totalled less than 20 runs, probably even less than 15 runs, actually, and got 3 cards out of it. Unless I have been extraordinarily lucky, there's something wrong. I ran core more often than scriptorium, and got only one card to drop there.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

While I am still "pro-accessability", I feel confident in saying that this game doesn't respect/require actual skill anymore (not that I think it ever did so all that much), which is my biggest gripe with it. Your approach here might be to blame it almost exclusively on the drop-rates, because easier access to power makes gameplay easier, and I can agree to some extent. My take on it is that the game's balance so out of tune that the drop rates actually play a fairly minor role in comparison to the overall balance.

Somewhat agreeable, but you need to realize that builds require gear, ac classes and what not can only take a build so far, so you need the gear to "break" the game even further.

Yeah you can't run around "naked". But really, with the carrying potential some ACs have, you can do a lot of content on a rather bare-bones setup. Like, fuck me, all you need is a 5 link, leech, VP and resists, all those are easy to get. And when you add ascendancies on top, you're already on the fast-lane. The exception here are builds that require enabling items

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

On the other hand though, did they really do more before? I don't believe so, to be honest. Races were more abundant back then, sure. Leagues however lasted longer periods of time, they are being released at a 33% higher rate than before. Adding new core-content? Heck, for how long have we been running merciless docks?! I think they are adding more these days than they did before: Act 4, lab, Shaper and guardians, lockstep, the trade improvements... I mean, come on, it's not as if there was barely anything happening as of late, but the things they do may feel "less dynamic" because the entirety of this game is "bigger" now, for lack of a better term.

There was at least a year of 3 month leagues "back in the day", not only that but they had TWICE the league designs and still did expansions and gave us act 4. Is the rate perhaps a bit faster now then back then, sure but additional acts IMO don't really add near the same level as improvements to the actual game.

Lockstep happened while act 4 did, still when they were doing 2 leagues AND races.

Yeah this is because they had the team to pull it all off at once, and the time was in favour of working on all these things. When you look at act 5 being virtually around the corner, with a beta coming up. Like, there's quite a few things happening.

True they had two different leagues running at the same time, which had it's pros and cons, but when you look at stuff like invasion and compare it to prohecy, there's quite a difference just in the "size" of these leagues content-wise, though I will say that tempest/warbands both were rather nice, and had a distinct vibe to them in terms of gameplay-impact, eventhough some people didn't like the warband drops for some reason. But that's why I am saying it's probably wise not to judge too quickly here.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

This is due to the infancy of this game. Uniques are not what they should be. Skyforth's is one example: A motherlode of generic power, no strings attached. But I digress...

No regen, Kappa.

As if that really mattered. ;-)

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

What I was going to say was that uniques have been handled the wrong way. When it comes to low-life, shav's is the go-to, Lorica is the band-aid/noobtrap. There is nothing inbetween that provides the same function. The lazy solution was upping the drop rate, to make shav's more available. The better solution would have been adding stepping stones inbetween those items, instead of upping the drops, hence a fated lorica would have been in order at the very least. But since we don't have the better solution, I prefer the lazy solution over having none at all.

The other solution was div cards, which enable people to piece "a piece of the item" no one NEEDS to go low life in order to make a build worth doing, especially now. People used to transition builds now they just grab generic nodes and use whatever skill takes the least investment in order to kill mobs

Yeah, I mean div cards and their purpose are something that always can be discussed up and down and whatnot.

Like, yeah you can use any skill without being low-life, and clear all the content. So in that sense shav's, lorica, and coruscating elixir don't even need to exist at all. However some builds really start shining when you can get one or two more auras going on top of pain attunement, and that's where I could see a point in regards to shav's being probably too cheap for what it does, because it's more or less an item taken for granted by now, which can be iterated upon quite a bit. But then again, the game is at a point where there's no valid alternative to shav's if you want to go lowlife, hence the drop rate has been increased by a quite a bit, I suppose. And again there's the thing with people having build-diarrhea, along with my stance towards the matter being that the grind for a shav's was too extensive for quite a few people, which I can understand perfectly fine as well.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

If decent stepping stones existed on the way to tier 1 uniques, I would be perfectly fine with having those uniques at a significantly lower drop-rate, and I think it's safe to say everyone else would have been okay with such a solution. Now we're at the point of no return, because woe is day they pulled back the drop-rates to where they were. I can see the shitstorm from a lightyear away. A missed opportunity for sure.

They could slowly return the drop rates to almost the previous rarity, giving people time to adjust.

If the basic idea is to turn back the drop rate every time a "stepping-stone-item" is introduced, yes, I can see that working, but it's pretty much tied to this condition for me personally.

"

Yeah that was probably back when they were like fresh out the box. It was at that time that I didn't have enough time to concern myself with the top-end uniques, or grind end-game content either.

Really though, about half a year ago you could still ask 40ex for them, and get paid.

This was a couple of months maybe 3-4 after they were introduced, probably a bit more because I can remember working with someone that was trying to comeup with a new build to farm uber, given that COE was just nerfed (i think)

Part of what makes them less valuable is the new VP location on the tree. Plus the fact you dont get instant leech on non critical strikes so it can be worst for some builds, at least in terms of consistency.

"

Sure you don't run IIR/IIQ builds in the lab, but the drops in the lab compete with what mf-builds could loot outside of it on the same market, that's what I'm saying. So if you make the farming outside of the lab less attractive... Well, I guess you can see where that's going, if the lab remains untouched...

What completes more with drops in the lab or MF is actual drop rates of items. The lab should always be rewarding to do, otherwise there isnt much incentive to go out of your way to do it, but so should MF. GGG killed off a whole playstyle with rarity changes in order to make builds more "accessible"

So we actually have less diversity and "better" loot as a result. Again this isn't seen as a positive for people that play a lot.

"

The exception here are builds that require enabling items

Which are truly far and few inbetween, ESPECIALLY ones that have no alternatives, in this specific case shavs actually has multiple ones.

"

Yeah this is because they had the team to pull it all off at once, and the time was in favour of working on all these things. When you look at act 5 being virtually around the corner, with a beta coming up. Like, there's quite a few things happening.

An act every 2 years is the same timeline of what they have done before, again with following the whole 2 league idea, races, blah blah blah. I feel like GGG might be too caught up in also working on expanding the game to other markets to focus on the market in which the game started in appropriately. I can't think of anything else that would possibly suck up as much time to prevent them from doing what they previous have done.

"

True they had two different leagues running at the same time, which had it's pros and cons, but when you look at stuff like invasion and compare it to prohecy, there's quite a difference just in the "size" of these leagues content-wise, though I will say that tempest/warbands both were rather nice, and had a distinct vibe to them in terms of gameplay-impact, eventhough some people didn't like the warband drops for some reason. But that's why I am saying it's probably wise not to judge too quickly here.

Tempest was great, furthermore what was awesome about having different leagues was the ability to go to the other league to experience it's content. I'm somewhat fine with them just doing one league, but it has negative effects that again haven't been addressed properly IMO.

"

Like, yeah you can use any skill without being low-life, and clear all the content. So in that sense shav's, lorica, and coruscating elixir don't even need to exist at all. However some builds really start shining when you can get one or two more auras going on top of pain attunement, and that's where I could see a point in regards to shav's being probably too cheap for what it does, because it's more or less an item taken for granted by now, which can be iterated upon quite a bit. But then again, the game is at a point where there's no valid alternative to shav's if you want to go lowlife, hence the drop rate has been increased by a quite a bit, I suppose. And again there's the thing with people having build-diarrhea, along with my stance towards the matter being that the grind for a shav's was too extensive for quite a few people, which I can understand perfectly fine as well.

There is nothing wrong with items that are out of people's grasp. Just playing this game shouldn't give you everything by week one or two, you need to be able to have long term goals that aren't "perfect rares", because that is chasing a never ending tail, except in standard where you can get whatever mirrored item you want (for a price of course)

"

If the basic idea is to turn back the drop rate every time a "stepping-stone-item" is introduced, yes, I can see that working, but it's pretty much tied to this condition for me personally.

The thing is there are already at least 2 if not more alternatives to shavs. People just "refuse" to accept them, that doesn't make them anyless useable or alternative.