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JusJev wrote:
My lvl 95 berserker has 13k armour(with coil), 7 endurance charges,fortify on main skill, 6.5k life, basalt flask and I would not attempt to face tank that boss...
because the ball he shoots is a 50/50 phys/fire and your awesome stats deal with the first half and then you get murdered with the fire part.
you have enough buffer to soak everything or you carry the ruby
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Posted bysidtherat#1310on May 17, 2016, 1:11:29 PM
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mark1030 wrote:
As far as the telegraphed hits go, you aren't meant to tank them. They give you enough time to get out of the way. Even melee is supposed to get out of the way. Sometimes it makes the fight take longer. Like you may have to wait for the torture chamber boss to shoot her beam and then attack her in the downtime. Hit and run tactics. Supposed to make the game more interesting than just standing face to face holding down your attack.
You mean like how a ranged character can just stand a screen and a half away and hold down his attack?
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JusJev wrote:
But honestly m8, Orchard boss does not obey rules of mitigation. get hit = get fucked. Simple rule for that boss. My lvl 95 berserker has 13k armour(with coil), 7 endurance charges,fortify on main skill, 6.5k life, basalt flask and I would not attempt to face tank that boss or get grazed by his slow moving projectile attack. The fast ones wont kill you but the slow moving one is almost a guaranteed 1 shot and that's perfectly fine.
Precisely how do you suggest that a melee character not get hit by Tunneltrap, or any other boss for that matter? You know, considering he'd have to stand right next to it to attack it?
Also, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lLzkq3WP7o
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Posted bysuszterpatt#5078on May 17, 2016, 1:55:17 PM
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suszterpatt wrote:
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mark1030 wrote:
As far as the telegraphed hits go, you aren't meant to tank them. They give you enough time to get out of the way. Even melee is supposed to get out of the way. Sometimes it makes the fight take longer. Like you may have to wait for the torture chamber boss to shoot her beam and then attack her in the downtime. Hit and run tactics. Supposed to make the game more interesting than just standing face to face holding down your attack.
You mean like how a ranged character can just stand a screen and a half away and hold down his attack?
How many one shot bosses have no ranged or AoE attacks? A ranged character would die taking the exact same hit from this boss.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
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Posted bymark1030#3643on May 17, 2016, 2:14:45 PM
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How the hell did you stand still for 2 shots from that devourer? Like the first one wasn't warning enough?
ETA Tanky? C'mon man, even my hybrid summoner has 5500 Effective HP My lowlife's down around 4K but she's very mobile.
Quoting Saltychipmunk:
...I look at the new act 5 boss where you have to hide behind the statues to survive the bullet hell and all I can think is... how the fuck are zombies going to survive that?
They don't know what hiding is... they don't know what dodging is... they are morons. Last edited by joachimbond#0494 on May 17, 2016, 2:26:50 PM
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Posted byjoachimbond#0494on May 17, 2016, 2:25:09 PM
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suszterpatt wrote:
Precisely how do you suggest that a melee character not get hit by Tunneltrap, or any other boss for that matter? You know, considering he'd have to stand right next to it to attack it?
Also, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lLzkq3WP7o
Always be moving. If he pops up, you're already past when he swings. Then circle kite, and hit him in the back of the head. The fireball is telegraphed. Dodge it.
Quoting Saltychipmunk:
...I look at the new act 5 boss where you have to hide behind the statues to survive the bullet hell and all I can think is... how the fuck are zombies going to survive that?
They don't know what hiding is... they don't know what dodging is... they are morons.
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Posted byjoachimbond#0494on May 17, 2016, 2:28:45 PM
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JusJev wrote:
Lost me at "eat a dick fuckbags" lololololololol.
4K life is a joke as melee. Even on SC. This reminds me of a guy yesterday that had 3.1k life in a T11 map and got killed by dropbears. After patch 1.3 that simply isnt enough life. You don't need 6.5k-8k life to be tanky as earlier suggested. That's a fucking joke lol.
But honestly m8, Orchard boss does not obey rules of mitigation. get hit = get fucked. Simple rule for that boss. My lvl 95 berserker has 13k armour(with coil), 7 endurance charges,fortify on main skill, 6.5k life, basalt flask and I would not attempt to face tank that boss or get grazed by his slow moving projectile attack. The fast ones wont kill you but the slow moving one is almost a guaranteed 1 shot and that's perfectly fine.
Well. 6,5k-8k isn't far fetched for a tanky melee character to be honest. You can do well on softcore with much less but if you wanna label your character as tanky 6,5k... maybe 6,2k would be a minimum (depending on mitigation of course).
Let me give an example why I think this is this is the case.
If you take a completely standard Harbinger bow you have 165% increased life from passives and 2 jewel slots. Let us count that as 6% increased life in each jewel slot. 177% in total.
You got 162 base life from helping oak, 124 strength, lvl 1 starter hp, bonus hp from passives.
Let us for simplicity sake say your lvl 90. 90 x 12 base hp (1080).
You got 570 hp from gear (0 helmet, 0 gloves, 80 boots, 100 chest, 70 amulet, 70 ring1 , 70 ring2, 90 belt, 90 quiver, 0 bow).
Total base hp: 1812.
Total HP: 1812 x 2,77 = 5019hp.
Now I know this is not a melee character but I am trying to show here is the following:
With fairly low increased hp (165%), fairly low amount of jewel slots (2) and 2 items (gloves and helmet) with 0 base hp on them you should still end up somewhere around 5k hp.
So 5k is by no standard high. 5K is a well geared glass-canon ("glass" depending on mitigation of course).
But try to put in 200%, 3 jewel slots, 200 extra strength (being melee and all) and maybe 1 less items with 0 hp on it (let us say you got 75 hp on gloves and a total of 21% increased life from jewels) (Notice we do not change the flat hp we gain passives such as Constitution in Scion Life Wheel. If we assume a melee build would have access to a bit more flat hp from passives the actual result would be slightly higher).
you should then end up with:
1987 base hp x 3,21 = 6378 hp.
Now I know I am only counting hp right now. Yes HP alone does not cut it. You need mitigation on top of it but I think this shows that 6,5k as a tanky character is not by any means far fetched.
Last edited by Frankenberry#0590 on May 17, 2016, 2:32:46 PM
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Posted byFrankenberry#0590on May 17, 2016, 2:30:09 PM
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joachimbond wrote:
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suszterpatt wrote:
Precisely how do you suggest that a melee character not get hit by Tunneltrap, or any other boss for that matter? You know, considering he'd have to stand right next to it to attack it?
Also, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lLzkq3WP7o
Always be moving. If he pops up, you're already past when he swings. Then circle kite, and hit him in the back of the head. The fireball is telegraphed. Dodge it.
Right, so basically spend half your time moving rather than attacking. Meanwhile, any archer or caster can just stand in place and keep spamming, occasionally taking one step to the side when a fireball comes, or teleporting away when Tunneltrap gets close.
Do you see where I'm going with this?
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Posted bysuszterpatt#5078on May 17, 2016, 2:40:45 PM
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suszterpatt wrote:
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joachimbond wrote:
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suszterpatt wrote:
Precisely how do you suggest that a melee character not get hit by Tunneltrap, or any other boss for that matter? You know, considering he'd have to stand right next to it to attack it?
Also, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lLzkq3WP7o
Always be moving. If he pops up, you're already past when he swings. Then circle kite, and hit him in the back of the head. The fireball is telegraphed. Dodge it.
Right, so basically spend half your time moving rather than attacking. Meanwhile, any archer or caster can just stand in place and keep spamming, occasionally taking one step to the side when a fireball comes, or teleporting away when Tunneltrap gets close.
Do you see where I'm going with this?
We really going to make this another melee vs ranged topic?
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
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Posted bymark1030#3643on May 17, 2016, 3:14:36 PM
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suszterpatt wrote:
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JusJev wrote:
But honestly m8, Orchard boss does not obey rules of mitigation. get hit = get fucked. Simple rule for that boss. My lvl 95 berserker has 13k armour(with coil), 7 endurance charges,fortify on main skill, 6.5k life, basalt flask and I would not attempt to face tank that boss or get grazed by his slow moving projectile attack. The fast ones wont kill you but the slow moving one is almost a guaranteed 1 shot and that's perfectly fine.
Precisely how do you suggest that a melee character not get hit by Tunneltrap, or any other boss for that matter? You know, considering he'd have to stand right next to it to attack it?
Also, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lLzkq3WP7o
I kill tunnel trap as melee all the time. He has a predictable consistent pattern. You attack him go out of his range so he tunnels. Wait. walk around until he fires a slow projectile. Dive in and attack. He never shoots the slow projectile twice in a row. NEVER. Any "good" melee build will survive the lmp shot. Rinse repeat.
P.S That person is not using MoM, loses 80% of their life from 1 melee hit so Im pretty sure they have little to no armour, no AA, nothing. I'm confused what is their defence? block? I don't even see tempest shield. BTW never carry a golem to Tunnel trap fight They will pk you when the slow projectile explodes on them, like it did to that guy lol. A character like his has no business fighting tunnel trap.
It's like saying RF builds are unfair because they are basically immune to Magera fire storm(crematorium). You have to know your enemy and if you aren't prepared to handle it, skip it or if u can do a map without doing bosses, sell it for something else.
Last edited by JusJev#2518 on May 17, 2016, 3:56:45 PM
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Posted byJusJev#2518on May 17, 2016, 3:15:07 PM
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Frankenberry wrote:
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JusJev wrote:
Lost me at "eat a dick fuckbags" lololololololol.
4K life is a joke as melee. Even on SC. This reminds me of a guy yesterday that had 3.1k life in a T11 map and got killed by dropbears. After patch 1.3 that simply isnt enough life. You don't need 6.5k-8k life to be tanky as earlier suggested. That's a fucking joke lol.
But honestly m8, Orchard boss does not obey rules of mitigation. get hit = get fucked. Simple rule for that boss. My lvl 95 berserker has 13k armour(with coil), 7 endurance charges,fortify on main skill, 6.5k life, basalt flask and I would not attempt to face tank that boss or get grazed by his slow moving projectile attack. The fast ones wont kill you but the slow moving one is almost a guaranteed 1 shot and that's perfectly fine.
Well. 6,5k-8k isn't far fetched for a tanky melee character to be honest. You can do well on softcore with much less but if you wanna label your character as tanky 6,5k... maybe 6,2k would be a minimum (depending on mitigation of course).
Let me give an example why I think this is this is the case.
If you take a completely standard Harbinger bow you have 165% increased life from passives and 2 jewel slots. Let us count that as 6% increased life in each jewel slot. 177% in total.
You got 162 base life from helping oak, 124 strength, lvl 1 starter hp, bonus hp from passives.
Let us for simplicity sake say your lvl 90. 90 x 12 base hp (1080).
You got 570 hp from gear (0 helmet, 0 gloves, 80 boots, 100 chest, 70 amulet, 70 ring1 , 70 ring2, 90 belt, 90 quiver, 0 bow).
Total base hp: 1812.
Total HP: 1812 x 2,77 = 5019hp.
Now I know this is not a melee character but I am trying to show here is the following:
With fairly low increased hp (165%), fairly low amount of jewel slots (2) and 2 items (gloves and helmet) with 0 base hp on them you should still end up somewhere around 5k hp.
So 5k is by no standard high. 5K is a well geared glass-canon ("glass" depending on mitigation of course).
But try to put in 200%, 3 jewel slots, 200 extra strength (being melee and all) and maybe 1 less items with 0 hp on it (let us say you got 75 hp on gloves and a total of 21% increased life from jewels) (Notice we do not change the flat hp we gain passives such as Constitution in Scion Life Wheel. If we assume a melee build would have access to a bit more flat hp from passives the actual result would be slightly higher).
you should then end up with:
1987 base hp x 3,21 = 6378 hp.
Now I know I am only counting hp right now. Yes HP alone does not cut it. You need mitigation on top of it but I think this shows that 6,5k as a tanky character is not by any means far fetched.
In hindsight my comment was a bit unwarranted. I get you, I really do. I personally dislike seeing persons play with 7k+ life because the game really doesn't require that. Your last statement is the truth. Hp with defensive layering is what works. When I see people forgo defences like just "wearing lightning coil" and then stacking as much life as possible and then labelling it as tanky and getting destroyed by porcupines is what I find dumb.
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Posted byJusJev#2518on May 17, 2016, 3:19:14 PM
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