block is better with evasion or armor ???

so whats the most effecient option building up a duelist???

Do you want things to proc when you block? (eg: riposte, tempest shield, aegis, etc?) Then armour is better. with evade you won't be blocking as often.

Otherwise it doesn't matter that much.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

Do you want things to proc when you block? (eg: riposte, tempest shield, aegis, etc?) Then armour is better. with evade you won't be blocking as often.

Otherwise it doesn't matter that much.

Wrong, block is much better with evasion, and this is a result of how evasion works. To make it simple, with pure evasion, each time an enemy hits you, it will reset the entropy value, and each time an enemy misses you it will increase your entropy, which increase the chances the next attack will hit you.

To block you must first get hit. Which means that when you block you get a free reset on your evasion entropy, without taking any damage.

So the interaction between block and evasion is exponential.

Armour will only decrease the damage taken if you fail to block. And remember, armour is useless against big hits (unless you get 40k+ of it). So in both choices, dont forget to get a good healthpool.

I suggest you read the wiki about the evasion mechanic if you want learn more about it, since its too long to make a detailed post about it.

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Zybeline2 wrote:

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dudiobugtron wrote:

Do you want things to proc when you block? (eg: riposte, tempest shield, aegis, etc?) Then armour is better. with evade you won't be blocking as often.

Otherwise it doesn't matter that much.

Wrong, block is much better with evasion, and this is a result of how evasion works. To make it simple, with pure evasion, each time an enemy hits you, it will reset the entropy value, and each time an enemy misses you it will increase your entropy, which increase the chances the next attack will hit you.

To block you must first get hit. Which means that when you block you get a free reset on your evasion entropy, without taking any damage.

So the interaction between block and evasion is exponential.

Armour will only decrease the damage taken if you fail to block. And remember, armour is useless against big hits (unless you get 40k+ of it). So in both choices, dont forget to get a good healthpool.

I suggest you read the wiki about the evasion mechanic if you want learn more about it, since its too long to make a detailed post about it.

I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that.

Block and evasion are both avoidance type of defenses, so when you do get hit, you'll get hit for full amount, which can be lethal (due to stun for example). Also with very high evasion (blind + jade + grace for example) your block value is a bit wasted most of the time, and when you'll need it the most it still can fail even at 75%.

On the other hand Armor is a mitigation type of defense, that means it'll reliably help even when block fails. It also helps against non-blockable damage that hits, like physical spells. Finally saying that anything below 40k armor is useless is misleading. Even 10k armor provide 25% mitigation against 3k phys hit (or 750 flat mitigation), and while percentage will go down for bigger hits, flat amount mitigated will go up. For example against 4k phys hit it'll be 20%, but flat will be 800.

In my opinion, the choice of mainlining armor or evasion mostly comes down to your position on the tree and travel path you take/specific gear you plan to use.

^ One flaw in the analysis - you could as well say, that Armor mitigation is wasted, when you Block. There is no difference there, only one being one of the mitigation is by chance, and other is by %.

But TBH, Evasion has its own block kind of mechanic - Dodge. And unless you want to get Armor/ES, it is far easier to scale Dodge, than Block.

If you want to proc on Block effects (on duelist), Evasion is not way to go. If not, go with Evasion (but don't forget to get some Physical mitigation like Lightning Coil, Taste of Hate, Basalt flask, Endurance charges or anything else... :P)

You don't choose your defense depending on your position on the tree. You position yourself on the tree depending on the defense you want. Doing as you said would result in a very ineficient way of investing in defenses.

Yes you take full hit when you fail to block, evade and dodge. But small hits are never gonna be a problem. Big hits are. Having a taste of hate, or lightning coil, or endurance charges or a basalt or a granite will always be more effective than armor against big hits. You don't need to invest into armor to have a good enough protection against big hits. How can you justify full gear and 20 passives for armor when you can just use one or two items/flask instead?

Why it is armor or flask/coil/...? U can use those things with armor too, making armor way way better.

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Zybeline2 wrote:

You don't choose your defense depending on your position on the tree. You position yourself on the tree depending on the defense you want. Doing as you said would result in a very ineficient way of investing in defenses.

Yes you take full hit when you fail to block, evade and dodge. But small hits are never gonna be a problem. Big hits are. Having a taste of hate, or lightning coil, or endurance charges or a basalt or a granite will always be more effective than armor against big hits. You don't need to invest into armor to have a good enough protection against big hits. How can you justify full gear and 20 passives for armor when you can just use one or two items/flask instead?

How is armor bad against big hits, yet Granite is good against big hits? Granite grants you armor. o_O

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Zybeline2 wrote:

You don't choose your defense depending on your position on the tree. You position yourself on the tree depending on the defense you want. Doing as you said would result in a very ineficient way of investing in defenses...

Ok, start a marauder dual-totem, and go full evasion with your block, cause it's the optimal way. Or start EK/crit shadow and go with full armor. Very effective.

Also I didn't say you "chose" your defense, I said "mainline", meaning you can splash some eva in your marauder, and you can get a bit more armor on shadow (and that's kinda the best way to play I think), but it's more effecient to heavily ivest in what's readily availiable: armor for marauder, evasion for shadow.

Considering flasks, you can use flasks with armor build as well, Stibnite and Jade of Reflexes are extremely good with high armor.

Considering damage conversion from Coil, ToH or Cloak of Flames, I was uder impression it happens before armor, so armor gets even better.

@Perq fair enough armor is "wasted" when you block as well :).

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Zybeline2 wrote:

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dudiobugtron wrote:

Do you want things to proc when you block? (eg: riposte, tempest shield, aegis, etc?) Then armour is better. with evade you won't be blocking as often.

Otherwise it doesn't matter that much.

Wrong, block is much better with evasion, and this is a result of how evasion works. To make it simple, with pure evasion, each time an enemy hits you, it will reset the entropy value, and each time an enemy misses you it will increase your entropy, which increase the chances the next attack will hit you.

To block you must first get hit. Which means that when you block you get a free reset on your evasion entropy, without taking any damage.

So the interaction between block and evasion is exponential.

Armour will only decrease the damage taken if you fail to block. And remember, armour is useless against big hits (unless you get 40k+ of it). So in both choices, dont forget to get a good healthpool.

I suggest you read the wiki about the evasion mechanic if you want learn more about it, since its too long to make a detailed post about it.

You dont seem to have read the wiki about evasion. Evasion entropy doesnt get reset if you get hit, the value will have 100 subtracted of it. This means on average block is doing exactly the same for armour and evasion.


Edit:
If you have 75% block, 75% of the time you get hit you will take no dmg -> 75% less dmg taken.

Ok with examples:

1000 dmg and 90% mitigation due to armour, without block out of 40 times you get hit 40 times for 40 * 1000 * (1-0.9) = 4000 dmg total

With 75% block: out of 40 times you get hit 40 * (1-0.75) = 10 times for a total of 1000 * (1-0.9) * 10 = 1000 dmg which is exactly 4000 * (1-0.75) = 1000, so no "wasted" armour....




Ok now with evasion, same mitigation as armour, so you have 90% chance to evade. Entropy counter starts between 0 and 99 lets say 99 to make it clear, if an enemy attempts to attack you his chance to hit, so in this Example 100 - 90 = 10 gets added. This brings the entropy counter after the first attack from 99 to 109, if it gets above 100 youre hit and 100 is subtracted from entropy counter -> 109 - 100 = 9. After the 2nd attempt its 19, then 29,39,49,59,69,79,89,99 after the 10the attempt and you get hit again after the 11th. So you see whats going on, youll get hit again by the 21st and 31st and evade all other attempts, until you are back at 99 after the 40th attempt. So in total you got hit by the 1St, 11th, 21St, 31St. A total of 4 times for 1000 * 4 = 4000 dmg. Again with 75% block you would get hit by 4 * (1-0.75) = 1 attack instead for a total dmg taken of 1000 * 1 = 1000.



Conclusion: Block is as effective with evasion as it is with armour and the other way around.