dual equipping shields

is not being able to equip two shields more of an engine limitation or a balance limitation?

if it's the former, then i suppose it's something we might see down the line someday. but if it's a balance thing (which is probably more likely), is it because it's hard to classify what attack/weapon type a main hand shield would be?

technically, it could be categorised as a 1-h mace. your would attack by bashing someone with you shield not unlike hitting someone with a blunt instrument. or you could raise your shield up and strike downwards, using the full gravitational momentum (and if the shield has a pointy end, the penetrative power) to deal damage.
but in consideration of balance, dual wielding shields should go with how shield charge works right now and make it unarmed.

and what about the various boni from wielding shields? specifically i mean the ones that say "while holding a shield", not "+x% chance to block". would you double-dip because you have two shields?

and what about dual wielding boni, would they apply to shields too?

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10% more Attack Speed while Dual Wielding
15% additional Block Chance while Dual Wielding
20% more Attack Physical Damage while Dual Wielding

it would likely be incredibly easy to max block with two shields, not to mention some unique shields' effects would be incredibly overpowered (think rotp +16% max fire res = EZ 91% fire res, or double rathpith for 80% block to spell block on a bad roll). one way to balance that would be by not letting you equip the same shield twice, but that's not particularly intuitive.
i think the trade-off for damage (at least, melee physical damage) would be well-worth the defensive option. right now, you can dual wield weapons for maximum damage, weapon and shield for middling defenses and offense, and with this mechanic, you go full defense. this would actually open up new strategies like tanking, or reflect builds in a way that is much more viable than on weapon-shield.

and what about necromantic aegis? would your minions benefit from your main-hand shield, off-hand shield, or both? personally, i think both shields should apply, because the theme of necroaegis is about giving up your safety to your minions so that they can protect not only themselves but also their master. and it would be an interesting choice for summoners because you have to consider whether you want to give up your +1 minions (midnight bargain) or uber zombies (montgreuls) for more defenses or utility on your summons.

as for shield charge, maybe it could finally have a decent buff that would put it to use on dual shield builds. having two shields would make shield charge have twice the effect - double damage, double speed, double stun duration.

for the last of all existing shield mechanics, tempest shield would now work on both shields, granting twice the block chance, twice the damage, and twice the chain. now that you gain +6% block, and at least +50% block from both shields, and then the dual wield shield bonus of +10%, you have 66% block and don't need so many block passives from the tree. then maybe you could go crown of the pale king, take lightning damage nodes, and do a 6l tempest shield build! tempest shield - chain - light pen - elemental focus - controlled destruction - (cooldown gem, if it ever comes out)

finally, after all the existing mechanics, new dual-wield spell attacks and spells could be added, such as a new set of counterattack gems that deals damage not based on your unarmed attack but as a portion of your defenses.
dexterity counterattack - parry: deals 5% of your evasion rating as cold damage in an aoe
strength counterattack - intercept: deals 5% of your armour rating as fire damage in an aoe
intelligence counterattack - rebound: deals 10% of your maximum energy shield as lightning damage in an aoe

Think it's more of an art issue than a physical limitation. They don't envision characters running around with two shields.

Using this with a shield is about the closest you're going to get.

Can't wait for the 3D art on this sucker. (still looks like a normal claw atm)

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Juicebox360 wrote:

right now, you can dual wield weapons for maximum damage, weapon and shield for middling defenses and offense, and with this mechanic, you go full defense

According to Mark_GGG's old posts, the intended design is that two-handed weapons yield maximum damage, dual wield yields middling defenses and offense, and weapon and shield yields full defense.

I'm not a power player, but I'm curious how well design panned out at the highest levels of play. Does dual wielding truly out damage two handed weapons in the end end end game? Does that mean two handed weapons are obsolete from an end game balance perspective?

Not only it causes major balance problems, but it also look dumb as hell...

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Perq wrote:

Not only it causes major balance problems, but it also look dumb as hell...

Many of my ADOM characters disagree.

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adghar wrote:

Does that mean two handed weapons are obsolete from an end game balance perspective?

A funny situation there currently. Apples-for-apples, 2H weapons are indeed stronger than DW, however crit messes that up because going crit with 2H weapons is still kinda iffy as only swords and staves have decent support on the tree.

Another issue is you don't need that amount dps for anything so the difference is pointless anyway, even a sword&board setup does quite enough damage if we're assuming good gear and build. If new melee skills are anything to go by, we could assume 2H skills are meant to have more coverage than 1H-specific ones and benefit, or at least not be disadvantaged by slow attack speed weapons, I kinda like the idea if that's the case.

Two handed is relatively obsolete because of the damage per strike, it's so high that you would kill yourself on reflect with one strike!

Also the dps is not high , the uniques arent very good compared to 1h crit options (bino, doryani's catalyst, etc).

Only the mirrored 2 handed and crit two handed are decent if you want to reach high dps.

but the lack of block sucks while dual wield has more diversity and more options to reach good survivability + decent dps

dual wield is very good ;)

i really enjoy advancing fortress. it is one of my favourite uniques this expansion. only part that sucks is that it's not an end-game claw, but makes sense seeing how hard they wanted to keep block down.

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Vipermagi wrote:

You already mentioned Rathpith yourself. That alone should make it pretty obvious, if you ask me?

75% Block is incredibly good, which is why GGG wanted to make it harder to obtain. Dualwielding shields makes max block (and Spellblock) a budget option. Sure, you lose a bit of power from your weapon, but you also become nearly invincible anyways, so your tree can go full stupid.

then enforce a new set of rules from dual-wielding shields.

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Whenever the player equips two shields of any type, dual-shielding grants the following stats:
10% less Attack Speed while Dual Shielding
10% less Cast Speed while Dual Shielding
10% reduced Movement Speed while Dual Shielding
0% additional Block Chance while Dual Shielding
20% less Damage while Dual Shielding
80% increased Block and Stun Recovery while Dual Shielding
All bonuses from your equipped Shields apply at 50% effectiveness

(this would be explained by lore as the cumbersome effect of having to hold two shields.)

note that this being a mechanic of its own would mean that dual wielding shields would no longer be considered unarmed; it would just be its own combat mode called "Shielded" with its own class of attacks.

the hindrances above would knock dual shielding into a niche archetype, rather than being "perma invincibility while i still dumpster maps" mode.

shield boni applying at 50% effectiveness removes the case where you're equipping two of the same shield for crazy stats, like 2x rotp for ez +max fire res, or 2x rathpith for ez spellblock. basically, it means you're really only equipping two shields for the novelty of having two shields, whether that be added in the form of dual-shield-only skills and passives or benefiting from two different shields, like wheel of the stormsail + sentari's answer for mf, or a necro aegis victario's charity + malachai's loop.

and after all this, if you still want to restrict this mechanic, then gate it through a keystone passive.

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Defensive Stance
Keystone Passive Skill

You can Dual Shield

(Dual Shielding grants the following stats:
10% less Attack Speed while Dual Shielding
10% less Cast Speed while Dual Shielding
10% reduced Movement Speed while Dual Shielding
0% additional Block Chance while Dual Shielding
20% less Damage while Dual Shielding
80% increased Block and Stun Recovery while Dual Shielding
All bonuses from your equipped Shields apply at 50% effectiveness)

It isn't for fighting. It's for when the fighting's gone bad.