ascendent hierophant additional totem doesn't work with additional searing bond totem

I noticed something a bit strange with the scion and totems. Here are the totem combinations I've had access to as I leveled my scion.

Before any passives: I can have one totem at a time. That means:

-one regular totem + one searing bond totem
---or---
-Two searing bond totems


Add in ancestral bond which reads: "Can have one additional totem summoned at a time" I can now have:

-two regular totems + one searing bond totem
--or--
-three searing bond totems


Next I added the Scion hierophant ascendancy which reads: "Skills in your helm can have up to one additional totem summoned at a time. I can now have:

-Two regular totems + one searing bond totem
--or--
-Three regular totems
--or--
-Four searing bond totems

What's weird:

Following the pattern and near identical wording, you would think that you'd be able to have 3 regular totems and 1 searing bond totem with ancestral bond and scion: hierophant, but you can't. Considering the wording, you might also think you could put several totem gems into your helmet, say, a fire totem, an ancestral bond totem, and a ballista and net an extra totem per gem, and that, understandably, isn't the case.

While few are likely to be disappointed that they can't have 9 unsupported totems cast from their helmet, The inability to cast three regular totems plus a searing totem was moderately disappointing and a little weird. Is this a bug or working as intended?

Thanks!

Can you provide more information on your final setup (Ancestral Bond + Ascendancy)?
Some questions that come to mind right away:
1. Do you have both Searing Bond (SB) and Regular Totem (RT) in your helm?
Does it change anything in placing possibilities if you remove RT or SB from your helm?

2. Can you have 2 SB + 2 RT or 2 RT + 2 SB?
Can you have 3 SB + 1RT or 1RT + 3SB?
The order of summoning might matter, since it does for placing different types of traps, for example.

3. If you have 2RT + 1SB, and summon another RT, which totem despawns?
Always the first one placed? Always RT?

Basically your final setup has a lot of variables and it's hard to say whether the behavior is normal or bugged or whatever, with the info you provided. I would test it myself, but I'm not going to do an Ancestral bond scion any time soon, if ever :).

Thanks for your reply. I'll clarify what I've tested.

Right now, I am running Ancestral bond from the passive tree and Hierophant from the Scion ascendency tree. My typical setup until adding scion: hierophant was running two spell totems and a searing totem.

With just ancestral bond, Before adding the Hierophant passive, the searing bond totem did not interfere with other totems in any way. I could spam any combination of totems all I wanted and the regular totems and searing bond totems only replaced one another after one left play from damage or expired timers. It was intuitive worked nicely.

With scion: hierophant and a spell totem gem in the helmet, if I cast two regular totems first, the regular totem and searing bond totem compete for the third totem slot by replacing one another. If I add the searing bond totem to the helmet, they still compete for third slot if I cast them in that order. All the orders result in only three totems except for one. Casting searing bond from the helmet alone.

Note: I didn't have a helm available to slot a spell totem and s searing totem at once, so that portion was tested using the ballista totem.
It also occurred to me that I don't know what would happen if I were to cast a regular totem (from and not from helm) with four searing totems out. I'll try that this evening.

The interaction feels very strange and I'm unsure why searing totem would be overlooked if this is intended.

Again thanks for your time!

That sounds like a bug to me.

It's seems almost like +1 totem from Searing Bond and from scion ascendancy are the same modifier and they give this weird behavior if you use them together. Maybe worth reporting it in the Bug forum, since it's a pretty niche case and devs might not be aware of it.

PS. I wonder how totems will behave if you respec Ancestral Bond but keep the Scion Ascendancy. I'll compensate you regret orbs if you want :).

So I did some more testing and I have good and bad news from my results.

These are the combinations of totems possible for the maximum number of totems and how I got them.

The first set was tested with the following totem modifying passives:
-Scion ascendent: Hierophant
-Ancestral Bond

With both gems in the helmet, using ballista and searing totems, you can indeed have:
3 ballista and 1 searing totem
2 ballista and 2 searing totems
1 ballista and 3 searing totems
0 ballista and 4 searing totems
Totems at once = 4

With searing totem in the head and ballista in the bow you can have:
2 ballista and 2 searing totems
1 ballista and 3 searing totems
0 ballista and 4 searing totems
Totems at once = 4

With ballista in the head and searing totem in the bow you can have:
3 ballista and 0 searing totems
2 ballista and 1 searing totem
1 ballista and 2 searing totems
0 ballista and 3 searing totems
Totems at once = 3

You would EXPECT those last results to be:
3 ballista and 1 searing totem
2 ballista and 2 searing totems
Totems at once = 4

Next, I refunded ancestral bond away and tried again. This was using only:
-Scion Ascendency: Hierophant

With both gems in the helmet, using ballista and searing totems, you can have:
2 Ballista and 1 searing totem
1 Ballista and 2 searing totems
0 ballista and 3 searing totems
Totems at once = 3

With searing totem in the head and ballista in the bow you can have:
1 ballista and 2 searing totems
Totems at once = 3

With ballista in the head and searing totem in the bow you can have:
2 ballista and 0 searing totems
1 ballista and 1 searing totem
0 ballista and 2 searing totems
Totems at once = 2

Again, you would expect 3 totems total but only have 2

Lastly, using only:
ancestral bond:

2 ballista and 1 searing totem
1 ballista and 2 searing totems
0 ballista and 3 searing totems

Totems at once = 3

My conclusion:
Using Scion: Hierophant, if it was only possible to obtain an extra totem by placing both totem gems in the head, then it would appear that all is as intended. However, when placing searing bond totem in the head and ballista elsewhere, you can indeed achieve an extra totem without having both gems in the helmet. Since reversing the gems produces one less totem, this leads me to assume that, in the listed circumstances, either placing searing bond totem in the head is producing one too many totems, or, more likely, placing ballista in the head is producing one too few. While tested less, all non-searing bond totems I tested performed identical to ballista totems.

Also of note is the interaction of totems in the bolded situations. Searing totems and ballista usually won't override one another, but with scion:hierophant on, searing bond totem in the bow, and ballista in the head, they override whichever totem is oldests as if the ballista and searing bond totems were considered identical. Does this point to some kind of crossover in how the extra searing totem and scion:Hierophant buff are applied?

I'll definitely post this over in the bug forum as well.

Thanks all!

Thanks heaps for testing those!

It looks like they are working as intended though.

"

LordCeruleus wrote:

With ballista in the head and searing totem in the bow you can have:
3 ballista and 0 searing totems
2 ballista and 1 searing totem
1 ballista and 2 searing totems
0 ballista and 3 searing totems
Totems at once = 3

You would EXPECT those last results to be:
3 ballista and 1 searing totem
2 ballista and 2 searing totems
Totems at once = 4

I expected them to be exactly as they came out. Searing bond thinks your max totems is 3. Ballista thinks your max totems is 3. Why would they let you summon 4 totems?

"

dudiobugtron wrote:

Thanks heaps for testing those!

It looks like they are working as intended though.

"

LordCeruleus wrote:

With ballista in the head and searing totem in the bow you can have:
3 ballista and 0 searing totems
2 ballista and 1 searing totem
1 ballista and 2 searing totems
0 ballista and 3 searing totems
Totems at once = 3

You would EXPECT those last results to be:
3 ballista and 1 searing totem
2 ballista and 2 searing totems
Totems at once = 4

I expected them to be exactly as they came out. Searing bond thinks your max totems is 3. Ballista thinks your max totems is 3. Why would they let you summon 4 totems?

Howdy! The interaction here would seem like it may have been intended if it weren't for the fact that if you switch the gems you actually can get 4 totems. Why do you get 4 totems with only searing bond in the head, but only 3 with only ballista in the head? also considering the wording being nearly identical between searing totem, ancestral bond, and Scion: hierophant, each of which state "can have one additional totem summoned at a time" 1+1+1+1 = four. What's really misleading is that the Scion: Hierophant states "Skills in your helm" which might lead one to think you could put in four totems and cast eight, which, understandably, is not the case!

Thanks for reviewing my data!

"

LordCeruleus wrote:

Howdy! The interaction here would seem like it may have been intended if it weren't for the fact that if you switch the gems you actually can get 4 totems. Why do you get 4 totems with only searing bond in the head, but only 3 with only ballista in the head? also considering the wording being nearly identical between searing totem, ancestral bond, and Scion: hierophant, each of which state "can have one additional totem summoned at a time" 1+1+1+1 = four.

The difference with Ballista in the head is that you can have 3 ballista totems if you want.
If you don't put searing bond in your head, then it has a max of 3 totems. There's no reason it should let you summon 4 totems since it has a max of 3.

You can't exceed the maximum number of totems for any skill.

"

Thanks for reviewing my data!

No problems! Your data was really well structured and easy to see what was going on, so it helped me understand the situation much better.

That's some very neat testing, thank you.

Gotta agree with dudiobugtron though, it seems to be working as intended. Scion ascendancy functions like a little local Ancestral Bond, cause, when you have all totem gems in helm, it functionally is no different from your normal Ancestral Bond. It's even possible to have 3 regular + 1 SB totems, like you would expect.

The weird behavior was from Searing Bond already having similar local +1 totem modifier, but when it's not in your helm, SB doesn't take into account that you have +1 for your other totem (which it probably shouldn't) and starts competing for the last spot. It's like you have two different searing bonds. Sorry if assumptions I made in my previous posts misled you.