Rise of the Phoenix or Springleaf for low life RF?

Has anyone posted the math any where. 6% life regen on low life seems much better than 8% fire res.

Well an average RF build has ~11% regen and ~88% maximum fire resist in which case RotP's regen equivalent is higher than 7%. It also offers damage mitigation from enemies which Springleaf doesn't.

RF degens less from ES than it does to Life so RotP's "effective regen" isn't as high for a Low-Life RF build, and with the Trickster giving a 1.6x multiplier to Regen Springleaf could potentially be a viable alternative.

(Not to mention that a Low-Life RF wouldn't be able to get as much Regen on the tree as a Pure Life RF would due to the tree restrictions.)

Lets say you're working with 1K life and 6K es, and 12% ES regen per second from Zealot's Oath, as a base.

You have PoF, the +1 max fire res node, and Case 1: Springleaf or Case 2: Rise of the Phoenix.

Case 1: Springleaf.
Max fire res: 80%
Degen from ES: 6000 * 0.7 * 0.2 = 840
Degen from life: 1000 * 0.9 * 0.2 = 180
Total Degen: 1020 / s

Base Regen: 720
Regen from Shield: 360
Total regen: 1080/s

Net result: Regen 60 ES/s

Case 2: Rise of the Phoenix
Max fire res: 88%
Degen from ES: 6000 * 0.7 * 0.12 = 504
Degen from life: 1000 * 0.9 * 0.12 = 108
Total Degen: 612 / s

Base Regen: 720

Total regen: 720/s

Net result: Regen 108 ES/s

Rise of the Phoenix is better in nearly every case if using RF. If not using RF, a rare shield is usually better.

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zSavage wrote:

Lets say you're working with 1K life and 6K es, and 12% ES regen per second from Zealot's Oath, as a base.

Rise of the Phoenix is better in nearly every case if using RF. If not using RF, a rare shield is usually better.

Explain to me how you're getting 12% Regen while simultaneously getting 6K ES on a Low-Life build?
As I said it's harder to get Regen as an ES build on the tree. (Not to mention you're definitely not going to be getting Barbarism for the +1% Fire Res as an ES build.)


And you can't make a blanket statement saying that RotP is "ALWAYS" better, because that's just not the case.

If the goal is to maximize the DPS of RF, then that'd mean having the highest possible effective hp (Life+ES, mainly ES in this case;) as such, would you rather waste tons of efficiency/nodes going for Life Regen all the way on the opposite side of the tree, or spend that on ES and Intelligence nodes, efficient Regen nodes, and Fire/DoT Damage?

With the option to be a Trickster and gain a 60% multiplier to Regen (yes, this can be risky if you don't have enough regen without it if you go afk, but I don't think that's a big issue, just don't go afk with RF on or have a Dousing Flask on you.) you can skimp on Regen on the tree and go for more ES and Damage, in which case the potential to get a HUGE chunk of regen (6%) from Springleaf (which then gets multiplied by the Trickster's node to ~9.6%) is actually quite lucrative.

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Sheriff_K wrote:

And you can't make a blanket statement saying that RotP is "ALWAYS" better, because that's just not the case.

I didn't say it was always better, I said in nearly every case. This means there could be some cases (like the one you described, possibly) where it is not the superior choice.

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Sheriff_K wrote:

Explain to me how you're getting 12% Regen while simultaneously getting 6K ES on a Low-Life build?

It's quite simple, really. With a few small tweaks those mega regen CI tank builds can be modified for low life using a Shav's.

If you want RF, you can drop your high ES shield for RotP, or use a high ES shield with the reduced damage over time modifer. Sure, your character will have less than the 17-20K ES those builds can acheive, but you've got all these extra auras, and could still hit 10K with correct gear.

Don't forget about Shav's ring either, easy high amount of regen there.

every regen percent increases your regen by 1% (this is obvious)

resistances:

on pure life
every fire resistance percent decreases your degen by 0.9% (which is less than 1% regen by 0.1%)

on hybrid build
every percent of fire resistance reduces degen by more than 0.9% till you reach 4.5 more maximum energy shield than life. After that point every fire resistance percent will reduce degen by less than 0.9%.
formula to get those percentages:
(0.7+n*0.9)

n=(maximum life)/(maximum ES)



Springleaf will always give you that flat 5% regen, but fire resistance degen mitigation varies on your es and life amounts (in a sense of comparing with regen). Taking that common 0,9% case RoP will reduce degen by 8*0.9= 7.2% which is 2.2% more than springleaf regen.

It's quite easy to math out actually, and the result is quite surprising: Assuming you have 80% fire res without RoTP, Springleaf is better than RotP if your max ES is more than 18x your max HP, ie in practical terms, never.


Math
Note all amounts are implicitly per second

Assuming 80% Fire Res, the degen you take is (0.7*ES + 0.9*HP)*0.2 = 0.14*ES + 0.18*HP

Equipping RoTP, the degen you take is (0.7*ES + 0.9*HP)*0.12 = 0.084*ES + 0.108*HP

Therefore the mitigation provided by RoTP is equal to the difference, ie 0.056*ES + 0.072*HP

Equipping Springleaf, the 'mitigation' is 0.06*ES (as life regen is only applied to ES with ZO)

Therefore, you want to know when 0.06*ES > 0.056*ES + 0.072*HP
>>>> ie 0.004*ES > 0.072*HP
>>>> ie ES > 18*HP

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Grimmhammer wrote:

It's quite easy to math out actually, and the result is quite surprising: Assuming you have 80% fire res without RoTP, Springleaf is better than RotP if your max ES is more than 18x your max HP, ie in practical terms, never.

Thanks for applying Math and reason to your post. The only point on which I disagree with you is this: the result isn't surprising at all. Springleaf is one of the most common uniques in the game, can be dropped starting from a low item level, and has a fairly generic effect. Rise of the Phoenix, while still fairly common, is much more powerful, doesn't drop until higher-level zones, and is quite clearly designed to be used with RF. Of course Rise of the Phoenix is the better shield.

@GrimmHammer, don't forget Patient Reaper from Trickster increasing recovery (regen) by 60%.

@zSavage, yeah, I didn't want to mention Shavronne's Ring (I have a legacy one) since it'd be too expensive/rare for someone to feasibly get in a new League (I was erring on the side of OP being budget/league restricted.) But still, that's 3-4%. (There's also 2-4% possible from Talismans as well, but only in Perm Leagues for at least 3+months; as well as a few Unique Amulet options that give 1%.)

As for a low-life RF ES Build, looking at the tree there is 4% Regen that is easy to get (there's 1.8% more you can gain by spending 7 more points.)

Now, if you're getting 5% from PoF (either via Empowers or Aura Nodes) you're looking at 80% Fire Res without RotP. Let's say you have 7k ES and 1k Life and Trickster, you'd only need ~10.3% Regen to cover it. 6% from Springleaf and 4-5% from Tree, and you're done. (Or use Shavs Ring/Talisman and have surplus/extra.)

With RotP you'd need ~6.2% Regen in the above example, so it'd REQUIRE you to have either a Shavronne's Revelation, a Talisman/Amulet, and/or Vitality Aura to break even.

Now if you had a high ES Rare Shield, with the Leo Mod for Reduced DoT Damage Taken (up to 20%) then you'd need ~8.3% Regen, which would be easily achievable with the Ring and/or Talisman AND you'd end up with a way bigger ES pool for survivability and DPS.


tl;dr: In conclusion, using Springleaf is a viable budget option comparable to RotP, RotP is decent if you can afford gettng some extra Regen elsewhere, and a Rare high ES and DoT Dmg Taken Mod Shield is the BiS option if you can afford both it and the Regen Uniques necessary.