The game becomes less and less hardcore with each patch.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

If we want a game to JUST have fun, there are plenty of them out there from developers with yearlong experience in making casual games...

Just... have fun... So if you are not the one who likes to theorycraft (god, I hate this word) builds that means you are JUST having fun, and that means you can play any game and JUST having fun.. Right? It doesnt really matter which game because you JUST having fun, you can play any game ( or just any RPG? )

Do you know that *having fun* means a couple of thing you are doing and all those thing you are doing together does mean *having fun*. It cant be *having fun and therperferting builds* and *just having fun*

The other thing is your personal *having fun* include *theryoreting builds*. My *having fun* doent include, it include other things.

All in all, if you have fun playing this game that doesnt mean you can have the same fun playing other games, and the words in the qoute have no sense

"

davidnn5 wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

I might have overexaggerated a little

Nah, you hit the hyperbole ball out of the park.

If you want random and unanticipated deaths to occur on your millionth play through, you and Grepman are in the wrong spot. You're playing an ARPG that aspires to be similar to a Roguelike, but you really should be playing a proper Roguelike if you want that 'oh shit I could die anytime' even after years of learning how to play the game.

I know someone who's played Nethack for 30 years and never gotten to the end. I respect that, even if only for the insanity I see in doing something endlessly for no noticeable result, but I'd never want to turn Diablo II into that.

You, however, do want that. When you could just play Nethack.

Whom of us is really trying to subvert this game?

The reason i said "i might have overexaggerated" is because there is a ton of small tweaks like that, which have been acruing over the course of the developement of the game. This is not the most major, but one of many that if you add it to the already implemented, you can see the road being followed.

Dying to rhoas/leapers/flickers was one of the iconic things when learning the game and even for the experienced players, when racing. I don't think i ever died to those things on non-race gameplay after the first time. The damage of chargers etc had already been nerfed in previous patches. Have you forgotten?

I want new players to join this great game, but not at the cost of making it extremely casual. Is that too much to ask? I don't want to be on auto-mode until cruel malachai. I want my butt to clench when i see a milion a3 shieldchargers coming towards me at the same time. The funny thing is that even now the multiple charge is not lethal if you have decent defenses. The nerf was absolutely not needed and i stand by that. That was not an aspect of the game that made it "roguelike", but now it is an aspect of the game that makes PoE more casualfriendly.

"

The_Great_Alex wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

If we want a game to JUST have fun, there are plenty of them out there from developers with yearlong experience in making casual games...

Just... have fun... So if you are not the one who likes to theorycraft (god, I hate this word) builds that means you are JUST having fun, and that means you can play any game and JUST having fun.. Right? It doesnt really matter which game because you JUST having fun, you can play any game ( or just any RPG? )

Do you know that *having fun* means a couple of thing you are doing and all those thing you are doing together does mean *having fun*. It cant be *having fun and therperferting builds* and *just having fun*

The other thing is your personal *having fun* include *theryoreting builds*. My *having fun* doent include, it include other things.

All in all, if you have fun playing this game that doesnt mean you can have the same fun playing other games, and the words in the qoute have no sense

Huh?

PoE was never Dark Souls. You can use some mobility to your advantage but that's it. The only way to make this game hardcore for me would be to start PoE from zero, NEVER look to any forum guide or ask others for build planning, and design your absolutely 100% original builds from 0 and gear yourself up for them. Because that's where the theoritical skill of PoE is. Not the actual combat. The right gear/build is responsible for at least 80% of your success, 10% is about knowing what bosses/mobs/mods to avoid, and only about 10%(and i am being generous) is about your manual playing skills.

Other than that, if i accept your definition of hardcore, then the game became more hardcore and less at the same time. The game is much much harder now than it used to be when i played. In open beta the hardest challenge there was, was Shrine Piety, and then Dominus, both of whom nowdays are largely punchbags for certain builds that get absolutely destroyed by other bosses. However with trigger gems, counter gems and now auto curses, the game reduced it's need for mechanical skill even more. So there's that.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

I want my butt to clench when i see a milion a3 shieldchargers coming towards me at the same time.

I'd say very much yes to this if PoE was an offline game, however in online games developers are very careful with making reflex checks because it just depends too much on your latency. It ultimately isn't a good way to make the turd freeze in your buttocks.

Just to clarify, in regards to the previous page, I think the Shock and Horror boss fight is actually very good once you get it down because even if you got good tactics and a capable build you can't really be 100% sure nothing will go wrong. Kinda similar to Jungle Valley and Pit in that regard, though those two fights are nothing but an AoE check, I'm just comparing the screwup potential for an average build.

"

Poutsos wrote:

PoE was never Dark Souls. You can use some mobility to your advantage but that's it. The only way to make this game hardcore for me would be to start PoE from zero, NEVER look to any forum guide or ask others for build planning, and design your absolutely 100% original builds from 0 and gear yourself up for them. Because that's where the theoritical skill of PoE is. Not the actual combat. The right gear/build is responsible for at least 80% of your success, 10% is about knowing what bosses/mobs/mods to avoid, and only about 10%(and i am being generous) is about your manual playing skills.

Other than that, if i accept your definition of hardcore, then the game became more hardcore and less at the same time. The game is much much harder now than it used to be when i played. In open beta the hardest challenge there was, was Shrine Piety, and then Dominus, both of whom nowdays are largely punchbags for certain builds that get absolutely destroyed by other bosses. However with trigger gems, counter gems and now auto curses, the game reduced it's need for mechanical skill even more. So there's that.

No, it's not Dark Souls, that being said, I like the encounters that require mobility/tactics (act bosses, corrupted area bosses, rogue exiles, some rare mobs and a few magic mobs). Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the game was like that most of the time (like some string of minibosses, :P). It's true the game is always going to require knowledge to succeed mostly, but it could move more towards tactics/mobility. Also, it could be more transparent about a lot of things to be less guide dependent/more learnable.

Honestly, I don't understand the big deal with trigger gems. CWDT is not what it used to be, COC is still problematic, though. You don't manually curse beyond some point, but that never required skill. You have to move, flask and attack.

The only space for more skill would be to add a need for many skills in the same setup (utility, single target and vaal skills) to make combos, but I don't think it's late for that (Feel free to disagree).

The game has become more skillful overall.

"

Poutsos wrote:

PoE was never Dark Souls. You can use some mobility to your advantage but that's it. The only way to make this game hardcore for me would be to start PoE from zero, NEVER look to any forum guide or ask others for build planning, and design your absolutely 100% original builds from 0 and gear yourself up for them. Because that's where the theoritical skill of PoE is. Not the actual combat. The right gear/build is responsible for at least 80% of your success, 10% is about knowing what bosses/mobs/mods to avoid, and only about 10%(and i am being generous) is about your manual playing skills.

Other than that, if i accept your definition of hardcore, then the game became more hardcore and less at the same time. The game is much much harder now than it used to be when i played. In open beta the hardest challenge there was, was Shrine Piety, and then Dominus, both of whom nowdays are largely punchbags for certain builds that get absolutely destroyed by other bosses. However with trigger gems, counter gems and now auto curses, the game reduced it's need for mechanical skill even more. So there's that.

People still think dark souls is "hard" ? lol...

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

People still think dark souls is "hard" ? lol...

Since you are laughing let's see you beating SOLO The 4 Kings, Burnt Ivory King, Lud and Zallen, Ebrietas, Orphan of Kos on NG+7. Or even doing the Illusiory ring of conqueror(DS2 version of permadeath) run. Or Beating the defied dungeon bosses on Bloodborne on competitive Blood Level(70-90).

To be honest the game is just as much hardcore as it is before, because it defiantly isn't anymore "casual."

Only difference is that it's more accessible to people, which doesn't automatically mean it's less hardcore or casual.

"

Poutsos wrote:

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

People still think dark souls is "hard" ? lol...

Since you are laughing let's see you beating SOLO The 4 Kings, Burnt Ivory King, Lud and Zallen, Ebrietas, Orphan of Kos on NG+7. Or even doing the Illusiory ring of conqueror(DS2 version of permadeath) run. Or Beating the defied dungeon bosses on Bloodborne on competitive Blood Level(70-90).

Unlikely like NG7 DS II + is literally anything will 1 hit you unless he was pre-nerfed lightning spear. As for DS 1 I all you do for 4 kings is go full giants armor + iron flesh and tank through them but he probably doesn't even know that does he? Shit he probably died to Carpa demon.

As for the blood borne thing the guy probably doesn't even have a PS4 even if he did he would probably wipe a like a billion times to Ludwig and be like this is too fucking hard.

First of all, everyone who posted here, has his own meaning for the word hardcore. When hardcore is used to describe a game its because there is a permanent(-ish) death feature or penalty. HARDCORE =/= HARD. Having said that PoE is STILL hardcore cause HC players go to STD league and STD players lose experience on death. There is nothing more to say about regarding hardcore and obviously the thread's title is totally false/invalid. The game cant get less hardcore, it either is or is not.

Now for the majority of you who wanted to say hard/difficult/challenging etc (and instead used hardcore), lets actually see how the game evolved.

Lets start with the things that made the game easier up to this version we play now : The life per level and life nodes in the tree buff, AR/EV/ES nodes buff, Damage (all of them) nodes buff, more convenient place for numerous nodes and keystones, jewels, new uniques (every batch of new uniques in every patch has a game breaking one or a very powerful one at least since 0.11.2) , new affixes, master crafting, increased drop rates, skill buffs (even the ones they "nerfed" are more than viable just not hyped enough for sheeple to follow), trigger gems, death of damage reflect and thorns, countless damage nerfs to almost every creature in the game (bosses, exiles, trash mobs etc) - here are some of those changes up to 2.1.0 upcoming patch


Things that actually made and make poe harder up until now : the block nerf, the physical damage buff of mobs, EB rework, new leagues (mobs and bosses they indroduce in the new leagues are unbalanced as hell but they nerf them pretty quick after some whining.), new and higher level maps.

So we can clearly see what GGG implements with every patch, and with few exceptions we can see that overall the game indeed becomes easier (and less intriguing i might add) patch by patch. PoE is still challenging only because of the insane buff to physical damage with the awekening patch and the new map bosses with those insane fights. Everything else tends to favour newcomers and becomes really boring and flavorless for the veterans, with the only exception (even if it already began to deteriorate) being the passive tree that still offers some entertainment.

Now to make matters even worse with every new patch PoE also loses its "old school" feeling (free-for-all loot anyone?), it drifts further away from its roots and alienates older fans and supporters with the constant power-creeping and noob/casual friendly policies. And thats what Pyrokar tried to say on his OP (at least what i perceived). Sadly for a minority like us the game becomes less and less enjoyable (cause it actually loses its character, it doesnt mature as a game, it evolves into something else), fortunately for GGG that is what attracts new players (money) to PoE, cant really blame them but we cant continue supporting them too.

Anyway gl to everyone on the Talisman leagues, ill definately see some on you in HC version.