I realized this game is even worse than Diablo 3

"

sidtherat wrote:

well..

while the '2 years' is plain lie or overstatement (it takes like a week for a casual) what people seem to take for granted is that EVERYBODY plays the current FOTM cookie cutter build

flame totem, cyclone, poison arrow, incinerate - you know THE STUFF THAT DOES NOT CARE ABOUT GEAR

for most of the 'elite' playing anything else is just being stupid but if one wants to, lets say, level as a ground slam marauder or cleave or even spectral throw, maybe fireball (you know, the kind of build that SHOULD work, because why not - we are talking about new players) then the gear wall is real and really really hard to bypass (not mentioning that some skills are just noob traps by design - fireball, ele hit)

cyclone just deals SO MUCH damage that one can manage with wooden shovel instead of a weapon but anything else is just difficult, flame totem does not need even the shovel bit.

skills that can clear everything on a 4 link (all mentioned above..) are obviously MUCH easier to not care about drops than ones that require 5 link

sadly, it seems that ggg left the 'leveling shortcut skills' on purpose and there always will be a 'for the lazy' way. so we can all be winners.

That's really the biggest problem. GGG is still following the old Diablo 2 formula of roll an MF character and then you can gear up your next character. Not everyone has time to do that, and it's ridiculous game design to enforce that on your players.

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treffnix wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

..
skills that can clear everything on a 4 link (all mentioned above..) are obviously MUCH easier to not care about drops than ones that require 5 link

sadly, it seems that ggg left the 'leveling shortcut skills' on purpose and there always will be a 'for the lazy' way. so we can all be winners.

I agree with what you said, but disagree with the sentiment.
Let's assume a new player and just accept the fact that POE is a game which needs a lot of knowledge and/or practice.
What is wrong with looking up some cookie cutter builds in the forums if you're new? The people who wrote those guides had fun with these builds! Sure, the excitement will wear off after a while playing the same mechanics, but by then you've probably progressed from newbie to competent and have aquired some decent gear to twink your next characters. Then you can experiment to your heart's content.

The alternative would be to make POE easier to learn all round, but there are enough games around which are easier. POE obviously fills a niche which attracts enough people to keep GGG cooking.

So, my advice to newbies is:
Look up a cheap+effective build (there are quite a few different ones which will take you to mid level maps).
While enjoying that one, learn the mechanics as you need them, don't spend all your orbs in trade and keep nice twinking gear. By the time you're bored with all the cookie cutter builds that appeal to you, you'll be set up to go and experiment. And that is when this game enters a new stage of fun which less complex games just don't have.

Have fun and good drops,
T

if someone played as cookie cutter there is small chance he would like to play crap-tier build for a spin

there is simply something in the human nature that we adapt VERY quickly to the 'good' and do not like to get back to the 'bad'. playing anything 'worse' than cookie cutter is pretty much impossible. if cookie cutter clears a map in 5 minutes on a 20 chaos build.. why would anyone spend 10 minutes after spending 10 ex on a char? just why?

and if people are EXPECTED to research and play flavor of the month builds then.. why the fireball and other crap-level skills are in the game at all? just why?

problem with your sentiment is that people might get bored with incinerate or cyclone but pretty much noone will swap these easy-cheap-safe-effective (aka FUN - that is building selfesteem) for something like 2h cleave. because the power-gap is just too great and feeling weak is unacceptable. esp after knowing just how easy it is to be powerful again - just pick the 'easy' gem and go

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sidtherat wrote:

...
problem with your sentiment is that people might get bored with incinerate or cyclone but pretty much noone will swap these easy-cheap-safe-effective (aka FUN - that is building selfesteem) for something like 2h cleave. because the power-gap is just too great and feeling weak is unacceptable. esp after knowing just how easy it is to be powerful again - just pick the 'easy' gem and go

Ah, but if you don't think that any of the less effective skills are fun, then the fun really does stop where it stops in other games: Once you can run high level areas in safety and consider progress to be when you can clear them faster.
That's all other ARPGs in a nutshell.
POE only really shines when you play around with all the different possibilities, even if that character can't beat merciless Malachai. You can have a lot of fun trying out silly stuff (and failing eventually). And I bet some of the best builds were found that way, by accident.

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treffnix wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

...
problem with your sentiment is that people might get bored with incinerate or cyclone but pretty much noone will swap these easy-cheap-safe-effective (aka FUN - that is building selfesteem) for something like 2h cleave. because the power-gap is just too great and feeling weak is unacceptable. esp after knowing just how easy it is to be powerful again - just pick the 'easy' gem and go

Ah, but if you don't think that any of the less effective skills are fun, then the fun really does stop where it stops in other games: Once you can run high level areas in safety and consider progress to be when you can clear them faster.
That's all other ARPGs in a nutshell.
POE only really shines when you play around with all the different possibilities, even if that character can't beat merciless Malachai. You can have a lot of fun trying out silly stuff (and failing eventually). And I bet some of the best builds were found that way, by accident.

best builds are pure math. there is no sorcery in poe, it is all math. the build that can stack the most multipliers with the highest base - wins. when a spell deals 4 times more than any other spell (incinerate) and can be used for free (elron jewelry) and requires no crit scaling it is a no brainer. same applies to proxy damage (poison, traps, totems) - damage that can be applied while moving is worth A LOT more than one that requires player to be stationary. that makes cyclone so sick - it deals damage of a stationary skill but at the same time is a movement skill. it does wonders for clear speed (and its mechanics do that for survivability with leech/lgoh)

it is just math

i do think that other skills are fun, but if the notion is to do 'research' before playing then the research clearly shows what is 'worth' playing. everything else is an excercise in self-flagellation. and the sad part is that ggg thinks it is a good think that one can 'win on the char selection screen'

and the most important part: poe does NOT reward players for playing non-FOTM builds. there is no real reason to play these builds except for the untangible 'fun'. but drops are just better when one plays cookie cutter MF build disregarding 95% of poe 'customizability' or 'build diversity'. there are good builds (few) and the rest.

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sidtherat wrote:

...the build that can stack the most multipliers with the highest base - wins...
...it is just math...
...i do think that other skills are fun, but...
...there is no real reason to play these builds except for the untangible 'fun'...

I see where we differ. I don't think POE is a game you can 'win'.
If I'm not having fun, then it's a job, not a game. I enjoy my job, so why should I play a game for anything other than more fun?

BTW: I consider trading to be unfun, must agree with the OP on that. Oh well, to each his own.

I have not traded since the original closed beta and have never had problems with leveling, so I can't say I agree with you or have the same experience as you. If I notice my build sucks or is boring I start over.

I also have never followed a 'build guide' which I believe is the main problem for people who want to 'have fun' in this game. Seeing all the shinies that the build forums show you can't be good for one's expectations when playing this game.

Sorry for my language.

what i f*cking know is

if blizzard would have done half of what GGG has done with this game,
if blizzard would have been half of creative as GGG,
if blizzard could be able to achieve half of what GGG has done with this game,

blizzard fanbois would masturbate for the rest of their life to that game instead of big boob pin-up girls.

sorry for lack of argument in this comment also.

Best thing about gear needed to advance in the 60s+ is that its dirt cheap. What else are you spending your money on? Certainly not rolling maps and certainly not using it.. since you are complaining about gear to begin with.

The thing that makes me come back to this game is probably the social interaction with players. If you want a solo game i would highly suggest Grim Dawn @

http://www.grimdawn.com/

This is probably the game for you, and its pretty fun. Check it.

I remember 15 years ago playing Diablo 2 for the first time. After playing for a while I got stuck. I went online with my dial up modem and found a ton of information (Chaos Sanctuary) about how the game worked. I then found fan sites where people had made guides on different builds.

What has changed so much where people are now incapable of searching for answers and tips and mechanics? It's so much easier today than 15 years ago. Internet is exponentially faster and has search tools galore. I just don't get the mentality that expects everything spoonfed to players for fear of them quitting. If they are the type of players who quit because google is hard, then they aren't really long term players anyway.

Okay, so other than the "OP's arguments are easily toppled strawmen" thing which has been literally beaten to death at this point, the other thing I'm getting off this thread is "rate of progression isn't fast enough."

Now, here's the thing: if you're seriously wound up in how quickly you're progressing through a game (or movie, or TV series, etc), chances are you've already stopped having fun entirely. It's kind of like having sex, and hearing your partner say "are you almost done?" -- it immediately indicates that someone, quite strangely, doesn't want things to keep going for a good, long time. If you are actually having fun, then why in the name of RNGesus would want to get finished sooner?

So when I see comments along the lines of "progression in this game is way too slow," what I usually see in my head is someone trapped deep enough in a Skinner box that they don't really know what they're saying. I see someone who isn't having fun, but is possessed by a strange, most likely addictive impulse to continue to slog through things anyway, under some kind of self-lie that when they reach whatever arbitrary goalpost they've set up for themselves that the game will magically change from tedium to some kind of fun which was utterly hidden up until that point.

Um, no. This basically never happens. If the game isn't fun for you before you acquire X, it almost certainly won't be fun for you after you acquire X.

Naturally, it is those players exactly, who find the game unfun but somehow delude themselves into thinking it will be fun (if only they'd ever find Shangri-La), who are the most pissed off. They're trying so hard to make the game fun for them, and the game just stubbornly refuses to cooperate. It's traumatic to the point of causing actual, no-fooling insanity in otherwise sane forumers.

Which is sad.

But just to allow for more precise and accurate speech, almost every time progression rates are brought up, the real issue underlying everything actually has very little to do with progression, and a lot more to do with the sheer joy of slaying monsters. Or lack thereof. From the poster's perspective, of course.