Ascendancy classes - suggestion

If the Ascdendancy classes provided specific skills which were otherwise unavailable, and not just numerically different, than I would agree with opening them up (though maybe with an additional cost like the use of all three bandit quest rewards). If the skill nodes are just far better numeric versions of other nodes or gems, than I would be against allowing them to be open to any class.

At some point, the combination of skills/nodes/items and player theorizing will trivialize the all but a few of the game's challenges. GGG will be unable to counter this without wrecking the game for players with limited time and completely alienating new players.

Players who still want a challenge, will have class options that are definitely sub-optimal for a skill build, that provide more challenge. Players will eventually figure out ways around them (As D2 players did with zero point Barbs for instance), but they will make the game enjoyable again for those who want to have a challenge, smash everything and still follow a set of rules.

Something I feel a lot of people are missing about this update is that overall class balance can be made much easier.

Does the shadow suck butt in patch 7.5.9? Well they can just adjust some numbers in the shadow's subclasses to balance rather than toiling with the entire skill tree and potentially making things worse. Think about how much detail has to go into rebalancing a class right now, it's absolutely absurd. You can change a few seemingly innocuous nodes and end up destroying class balance pretty easily. Subclasses can help isolate problems and solve them far more directly.

I'm stoked on this (mini) expansion more than I ever have been on any expansion so far, including awakening. Classes have been almost entirely meaningless for a long time.

Now... look here! For those players wanting to lock Ascendancy "sub-classes" to specific classes and get bored of the same classes after a few months just for the sake of maintaining class flavour/theme, then for the sake of "Theme" lets make the Curses especific for the Witch class (yeah, fighters and archers cursing enemies!!!? what? doesnt happen even in the movies) and Auras specific for Templar. No? Thought so.

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x_KOR_x wrote:

Now... look here! For those players wanting to lock Ascendancy "sub-classes" to specific classes and get bored of the same classes after a few months just for the sake of maintaining class flavour/theme, then for the sake of "Theme" lets make the Curses especific for the Witch class (yeah, fighters and archers cursing enemies!!!? what? doesnt happen even in the movies) and Auras specific for Templar. No? Thought so.

That's textbook strawman.

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JahIthBer89 wrote:

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x_KOR_x wrote:

Now... look here! For those players wanting to lock Ascendancy "sub-classes" to specific classes and get bored of the same classes after a few months just for the sake of maintaining class flavour/theme, then for the sake of "Theme" lets make the Curses especific for the Witch class (yeah, fighters and archers cursing enemies!!!? what? doesnt happen even in the movies) and Auras specific for Templar. No? Thought so.

That's textbook strawman.

Yes it is, but I think it's pretty easy to imagine the non-strawman version of that argument.

The truth is that giving players the maximum amount of choice is bad, for reasons I described in my post on the previous page, and giving players the minimum amount of choice is, well, worse. Worst, even.

The funny thing is, there's a pretty obvious and easy formula to figure out the highest number of possible combinations. nCr is the usual mathematical notation for it; n!/[r!*(n-r)!]. The quick and easy math rule for that is: try to give players their choice of about half of the available options at any one time, because you reduce diversity if you allow them to pick either much more than half or much less than half.

Practical application: ideally, you should be able to get about +270 to +300 to the various attributes for your build, maximum, pretty much preventing you from having 212 in one attribute and 113 in both of the others.

Whether or not you increase the combinations by increasing choice, or increase combinations by decreasing it, is mostly a situational thing. Depends how close you are to that half point.

I would be for it if there was a price to pay.

Maybe make it so you don;t just get to an area to choose a path. Make it so other character's starting points are not closed. Instead, you can invest 3 skillpoints into it to unlock it. The points provide no bonus other than allowing you to choose an Ascendancy of that class when 3 points are spent.

Then, it would be up to players if they would want to sacrifice power for personal reasons.

heyho first of all i´m really hyped about the upcoming expansion.

(back to topic)
i dont like the idea, because the meta class is/was scion for a lot of reasons that i dont want to repeat (read previous posts). the subclasses finally bring some diversity into the game... when i first started playing i fell in love with the shadow, but (imo) unless you have a lot time for trading/are rich there are only some okish shadow builds out there...

another pro agument is the balancing part... its easier to adjust some subclasses than the whole tree... locking the subclasses to starting characters is the only way to bring diversity into this game...

my personal opinion:
dont be scared of change, otherwise we would still be at the same place we were when we were born ;)
i guess we will see A LOT of really intresting builds which will use the some really intresting builds... just think about a ranger - deadeye with... ek for an example...

block build which have a slower clearspeed than others will finally have some room for dps due to the 100% spellblock option which transfers into a more unrestricted gearchoice!

the shadow will finally be the dps mashine w/o godlike items...

general thoughts (again):
imo they are doing the right thing the subclasses have meta specific pros in each tree w/o pushing you into a certain direction... each tree has at leat 2 "completly" different paths... im just hyped about those changes... when i look back into those years i cant imagine anything ggg did terrible wrong what they implemented...

just remember those panic people:
forsaken master -> OMFG the economy -> nowadays i think no one wants to remove them

awakening -> OMFG unbalanced act4 -> hmm i still map w/o completing act4 merc as do a lot of others! AND the cards -> OMFG they will destroy the economy -> didnt really happened

In the real world almost every part of the glob al market is shifting... Some more some less... So the economy will shift... Cellphones... In the beginning 2000 bucks nowadays you get starting phones for like 50 bucks...

Final words:
Just embrace the changes because this game is what GGG and we love so much... and dont forget its their game ;)

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Shagsbeard wrote:

You either like this system, or you don't. Give it a try either way. All this complaining before there's even a chance to see what it will be like is really juvenile.

+1 and nothing stops GGG from improving the system, adding more Asc.classes or open them for every class.

We know a lot more after the first 3 month leagues with the new system active. If the less optimal builds are totelly stuck on Merc Ledge, something needs to be done... :D

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x_KOR_x wrote:

Now... look here! For those players wanting to lock Ascendancy "sub-classes" to specific classes and get bored of the same classes after a few months just for the sake of maintaining class flavour/theme, then for the sake of "Theme" lets make the Curses especific for the Witch class (yeah, fighters and archers cursing enemies!!!? what? doesnt happen even in the movies) and Auras specific for Templar. No? Thought so.

For most lore - Auras would generally be around holy ones - Angels, Saints, Devas, Paladins, and so the Templar would fit, while the others wouldn't.

Cursing - in the sense of uttering a curse, and expecting harm, wouldn't be relegated to witches alone. Hexing might be, but those are generally longer term things like getting sick, or mutating into an animal.

Spell casting hasn't been limited to witches and wizards either, Elric is a great example.

What you do usually find is that a wizard is better at casting spells than a barbarian would be, and that's all GGG is doing here - creating a little bit of distinction.

My opinion on what we know about the expansion so far:

1. The subclasses look cool.
2. They would be much cooler, in my opinion at least, if they were open to all base classes (I very much like the OPs suggestion).

Where I'm coming from: one of my favorite characters to date has been a tanky marauder SRS summoner. RPwise, I always imagine him as a shaman summoning minions of the ancestors to fight for him :). I've gotten a few very nice compliments on him in public mapping parties, and I'm very happy with how I put him together build-wise (and mtx-wise!). Looking at the witch necromancer ascendancy class - it looks amazing for an SRS build. If there is nothing comparably synergistic available for marauders, he will still be playable, but will not be in the same league as a witch SRS summoner. Such an outcome is fine, but makes the game much less appealing to a player like me. I really enjoy the freedom of design that is in the current game.