Observations

Hey, everyone. I'm not sure what E-mail address is linked to my actual account, nor do I know the protocol to fix it.

My character/account is ShinFuuma, I play a lot of LLD and HLD and I used to host a lot of charity beyond X 2 (Beyond mod + Zana) maps. So I may know some of you or vice versa.

I just want to discuss some of my observations thus far. I believe that the majority of people associated with POE are intelligent and logical, and I see a lot of concern about major aspects about the game.

First I would like to point out that games have always been a hobby of mine. Especially games that have competitive aspects. When I was younger in undergraduate school I was the leader and PvP champion finalist in Final Fantasy 11. I also played competitively in a lot of others games as well, to many to list actually. Easy to reference online though since I used the name ShinFuuma in every game I have played. I also played D3 and put it away in favor of this game.

I quit around the end of season 1, top 10 on the monk board and 2-10 on the other team based boards. I still play every now and then for pvp but don't play anymore outside that.(I'm the leader of Diablo III PvP community, lots of big names there to if any of you play for GR progress) I think I still have the highest APS in the world still to on viscous cattle too, haha. D3 all around was a big disappointment. It just took me a while to finally figure that out. (Release till season 1) So I have only played POE for about a year.

In present time I am involved in doctorate work and just life as a whole. Disposable time is short unfortunately.

I say this only to encourage a debate/discussion. As i'm not a social butterfly, therefore I really don't see myself to be entitled to any credibility. My intent is to give my observations and provide feedback/suggestions based on said observations. I have a lot of respect for the development team and POE's player base.

So I just ask you to look at this objectively. Moreover, please correct or address any misinformation therein. I have been mostly inactive after the Awakenings release. However, I am going to address some of the more popular problems and just my general observations.

When the awakening was released...to make a short story even shorter, I cleared act 4 on all difficulties in a serial fashion. Mainly, just to get the quest rewards out of the way and to see how the story progressed. It was fun, but I was more concerned about jewel optimization, map content and getting my build dynamics (Fortify? But where?) updated. Before awakening, 78 maps were not really an issue. I mean this both ways. It was not difficult nor were they considered to be a
serious commodity.

POE's population in general enforced the path of least resistance. People were only running easy modded maps with the intention of maximizing reward (EXP) and minimizing risk (Potential RIP). While this is easy to understand, I welcomed the development teams intent on making content difficult and more harsh in relation to experience and player progress.

I enjoy getting killed and I enjoy watching others get killed. It creates a sense of urgency and engagement. An experience point penalty is necessary in it's entirety. It shows you there is room to improve and possible adjustments to make. It shows you something is wrong it can be the result of a poor build, over commitment, lapse in skill or server side problems. Server based issues of course are out of the players hands. However, as people, we can be aware and try to prepare ourselves for such events.

Remember Diablo II in the AOL days? It's a common problem across all online games, so it does require a little bit of understanding and compromise on the players behalf. Hardcore players understand and incorporate this radically (Logging off). I really do not have feedback based on experience penalties as I am completely for it in every respect. Without it, progress would be easier (Fact). However, the game would lose it's sense of urgency and player involvement (My opinion). It would also be biased toward DPS based builds. So in reality POE would lose a lot of game play elements. Failure and negative feedback is an important part of growth.

Lets talk about POE's trade system. I see nothing wrong (fundamentally) with player based free trade. It actually encourages interpersonal communication and can be viewed as a positive thing. In reality however, you have 3 segregated groups of people. (C1) People that have enough currency to satisfy any requirements (Mirrored items and a stockpile of currency). (C2) People that have their basic build but still need to optimize it (Vaaling ect). (C3) People that have no real assets, very little currency and are struggling to make their perceived build. Now I understand there are sub-categories in between, but I'm just going to deal with the extremes to paint a more vivid picture. POE's economic model (Standard League) in reality becomes stagnant in relation to new players, new items and new uses for currency. What I mean is if no new people play, you eventually run out of consumers. If new items stop being made, no new markets are created. If currency is used just for bartering Vs actual use...Players will hold it rather than sink it, therefore preventing a potentially infinite resource over a infinite amount of time to actually decay per se.

My point is this. If we did have an auction house it would only accelerate this process. Currency itself would plummet to near nothing values and it would make even the most sought after items very cheap. While this may appeal to a new player, it would completely undermine actually playing the game. In essence it would feel more action oriented and less like an rpg. It would also create a paradox in where legacy, perfect and corrupted items would cost more than any player would be able to get reasonably. Consider this, legacy items exist in finite values, everything else does not. That would be the only market and the end result of an auction house.

Diablo 3 is a good example of this. When the game was fresh the auction house worked well realistically. In time it just served as a very large database. Either you had billions in gold or went without upgrades. In essence, if you were not taking advantage of the auction house you were not progressing. Like POE it involved taking advantage of naive players and flipping a quick profit. POE's peer to peer trading makes flipping a lot more work and requires a lot more time. It also supplies noise and feedback to give hints your being ripped off. Such as mass messages in response to you selling something under popular value. It also creates a limited market range which in turn creates a phantom market. One day intuitive leap sells for 5EX the next 10EX. This is a result of that limited range.

My feedback is only limited to standard mainly and hardcore leagues somewhat. I believe the economic model works well in the non-traditional temporary leagues. I suggest that Non-traditional leagues either have their own bottle neck (Anywhere but standard). Or they only migrate to standard with their rewards involved with the league specifically.

Do all temporary league/hardcore players pick back up in standard? No. Do they flood the market indirectly? Possibly. ((However)) What is observable, are people playing temporary leagues with the intention of taking advantage of the temporary leagues market.....to make a profit in standard. It creates an unfavorable market for people that just simply play in standard. This could help potentially turn the heavy economic cogs of standards stagnant market.

Now, I do not support an auction house. You really just need to look at the long term implications, (My opinion but based on evidence) However, I suggest that perhaps let players have personal markets within their hideouts. It would create 3 important things. A better player v game atmosphere, as players could publicly go to your hideout, explore it and buy things regardless of online status. It would also serve as an easier way to manage and sell items. Prices would be indexed and put into a type of stash for public transactions. Much like POE trade, but through a stash interface potential buyers could browse. Also, people could potentially really care about micromanaging their hideout decorations. Which could in turn lead to MTX sales. It would also cut out the interpersonal communication aspect of the game but at the same time encourage it, for the sake of haggling.

Currency, that can self decay is a great implication. However, what happens when the monetary value out values realistic use? You implement greater realistic use, and I can observe that is what possibly catalyzed the newer mapping system. (Which I will go into detail) People invest currency to potentially get greater (Asset) rewards. Your recent unique drop rate patch provides evidence for my assumption related to your possible intent.

Vaal orbs were also a great idea as it serves as a form of asset based entropy. It just isn't as effective as it could be though. Include a wider array and stronger possible augments to encourage more entropy, and more specialized (Curse effect to stun avoidance ect) potential rewards.

Perhaps, give exalted orbs the ability to increase/decrease the item level of uniques and the stats respectivily. Even 1% will get people interested. Better is better afterall. A potential 1-3% (Or larger values for low level uniques) increase across multiple items, will be noticeably effective towards end game character potential, and it would serve to keep a moving market. It would also create a lot more build diversity, while maintaining rare hierarchy. I do realize that it could bring potential balance issues. Some uniques are viable because of their specific use despite not being stat dominant like rares. Aegis is a good example. So it would entail a dynamic variance across all items. More growth vs smaller growth in relation to each item independently.

In general, give all singular use (Rares only) currency dual use (Unique and Rare use) in some fashion. Mirror of kalandra could remove unique corruption ect.

Lastly, I want to talk about maps. Mapping currently is why I really don't continue playing. In actuality, I believe everyone gets it. Any competent player could potentially 2 digit lvl82 map his/her way to level 100 quickly. As the developer, you want people to take the time to enjoy what the game has to offer and stagger content over time. I assume at least. Also, it may serve to create a larger time line in races. Considering, time invested x game knowledge x intuition x skill x
RNG will be reflected in the leaderboard. However, the problem in that theoretical equation is RNG. It's a double edged sword. One, anyone can discredit the player as being "Lucky" or more "Lucky" than themselves. Two, it's a factor that can and will be manipulated to a players favor. This is a good thing but realistically it should not exist. For example: If I was a streamer, I could use my shear force of reputation to exploit other players. While intent is impossible to debate. You can only observe and come to your own conclusions. Observably, I would have an inherent advantage that I should not have based on mass contacts and affiliations. It can be related to in game item/map donations, mutual party play (Competent party organization speed), time constraints (I need x,y and z and no loss of downtime), and just an ease of access to a pool of player resources quickly/effectively. Then consider another player who is superior in all respects, however they stand alone. Mathematically, RNG has to much of a deciding factor. People will shape their playstyle to fight RNG in anyway they can. Isn't that why reduced mana was re iterated? As a quest reward it allowed certain classes an inherent advantage. Placing said function on enlighten, preserved the potential dynamics but flattened the class v class meta. It also served as a longtime goal to limit it's potential in shorter temporary leagues and races. Right?

I can only assume.

RNG is ok in relation to currency and assets found. Of course play speed and time invested should over time reflect good results. This however, should not be apart of maps. Maps serve as POE's end of the line gameplay. In my opinion maps currently are not ok. They haven't been ok since the release of the awakening. My friends list has emptied and most of them have insulting status comments. While juvenile it does express open dissatisfaction, and it also seems to be rampant on the forums as well. People speculate it's to encourage more competition in races and temporary leagues, however thats contradictory to what I posted above. Am I incorrect in my assumption? Dredging through hours of LVL 74 maps isn't gameplay and I do understand it's relative to the player. For me it is work, and completely un-engaging. Just to clarify, the only real game is maximum stacks of corrupting blood in lieu of no enemies and a lack of concentration. The game is "Can I wake up before I use a quicksilver flask and rupture?" Of course, but it is not a game I would want to continue playing.

One party I was in had a guy that donated a lvl 80-81 map for fun, people died and it was engaging. (Mine Tileset I believe? Physical Link Tri Boss)

What I suggest is to make maps a lot easier to find exponentially. It really doesn't matter how you implement it. It's a simple matter. Restrict Xp growth in relation to the games development philosophy vs time. Also, make maps account bound. This is to provide content to players while promoting a more competitive environment among races. Of course, players can still join parties and use their own maps for others, or for the intent of mutual rotation. This will enforce an active
notice board for parties and promote making friends with other competent or like minded players. Since maps will have no value, people will feel inclined to play and play with others for greater rewards. It also promotes solo play as it allows an individual to set their own pace. Content, will be based on slight RNG and the players disposition to accept or reject the challenge before them. Overall, it would create a more personal gameplay experience.

Also, I suggest more development on unique maps. You have a great vector to be really creative. Simply making a unique map with beyond x 3 while easy to implement would provide a lot of good gameplay. You can make a lot of content very quickly, and very fun. I used to use and still use a gameshark to make older games I used to enjoy harder and different. (Final Fantasy Tactics is a good example) It's just a hexadecimal editor after all, but just simple alterations can
provide hours of engaging content. You don't have to recreate Atziri, simply adding strange dimensions and factors to a map will do. Just take a skeleton and scale it x 5, call that a boss. Hours of content with minimal man hours invested. Make 100's of these and make them difficult and rewarding to play. This can serve as the harder to find content with greater potential rewards. Players can also sell portals to the map to get a guaranteed reward and guaranteed enjoyment.

In conclusion, I really don't understand the new color coded map tiers being discussed. I don't understand the actual purpose mainly. If players go by area levels through basic game progression. Why would it change for maps exclusively? Mods were talked about. I believe that players can read and evaluate the mods on their own and come to their own conclusion to relative difficulty. MMORPG level confusion was pointed out as well. I believe that the map levels show more than enough information to make an informed decision alone. I just hope this isn't a development commitment to staggered RNG content progression and an attempt to make it more covert.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Thanks Dan. Very helpful. I also share your sympathies about the skeleton. Ha. Mainly, I just wanted to highlight that even minute changes can have great implications.

I wish you and your team the best as well.

Thanks for your time.

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ThisIsNotMyActualAccountName wrote:

[...]
What I suggest is to make maps a lot easier to find exponentially. It really doesn't matter how you implement it. It's a simple matter. Restrict Xp growth in relation to the games development philosophy vs time. Also, make maps account bound.

+1 for account bound maps. What I dislike in current system also is a mechanics which actually gives maps only to the owner of the current map. If I am joining friend and we're doing his map I don't see any single map dropped for me. That's frustrating.

"

ThisIsNotMyActualAccountName wrote:

In conclusion, I really don't understand the new color coded map tiers being discussed. I don't understand the actual purpose mainly. If players go by area levels through basic game progression. Why would it change for maps exclusively?

Agree as well. That's confusing, of course you can get tier level and add 67 to it and you have old map level, but why I should do that. Especially when (probably) you enter map it will display level in tooltip anyway.

"

ThisIsNotMyActualAccountName wrote:

per se

everytime i see someone writing "per se" i have to think about that vampire kid in southpark.. ;p

but well, i did like the idea about some kind of merchant in your hideout so people can also buy items from you when you are offline, but as more as i was thinking about it, as more ive started to dislike it. it would take a big social component out of the game, it would kill bartering and result in undercutting prices.. pretty much the same as an auctionhouse would do. so if you are against an auction house then you should also dislike your own ho-merchant idea.(?)

cant (or dont want) really comment the part about maps, so far i was fine with the current system and also got no problems with the upcoming changes. the only thing that bothers me with maps are some really overpowered bosses, but thats a total different topic and has already been discussed many times and doesnt need to get rolled up again here.

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Dan_GGG wrote:

Thanks for the detailed feedback!

I'm not sure whether players would enjoy fighting a single vanilla skeleton for a boss, even if it were 5x bigger than normal, but I can certainly bring up some of these ideas with the team.

There is a lot you could potentially do to make that 5x larger skeleton a boss or at least unique worthy:

Apply a flaming skull MTX
Give it upscaled Unique armor
Give it some fire based player skills

And boom, you got a unique skeleton boss that is the polar opposite of Chatter.

"

TankHunter678 wrote:

"

Dan_GGG wrote:

Thanks for the detailed feedback!

I'm not sure whether players would enjoy fighting a single vanilla skeleton for a boss, even if it were 5x bigger than normal, but I can certainly bring up some of these ideas with the team.

There is a lot you could potentially do to make that 5x larger skeleton a boss or at least unique worthy:

Apply a flaming skull MTX
Give it upscaled Unique armor
Give it some fire based player skills

And boom, you got a unique skeleton boss that is the polar opposite of Chatter.

Heh, a boss that uses Fire Nova Mine and Magma Orb.

"

I believe that players can read

lol, they don't. In map manifesto Chris stated that highest maps are special and should be run from time to time, he said that it is avaiable to sustain high maps based on statics from player they gather. Yet people comaplined that they cant chain highest maps or high maps don't drop.

people spend a lot of time in areas from lvl 1 to 68 and this sprogres is "linear". Then they go to maps and they think thay still have to progress that way. It is wrong. Maps have tiers, differend drop system and will have different xp progression.


MY opinion:
Why there is no maps from 68 to 99 making them step by step harder? Because it feel more like grind and is boring. If you understand map system you know that when you hit high maps you are in very end game. And getting 78+ map feels great. When you move to next tier you understand that you character just beated some barrier and is stronger, it feel great. If you would grind to get to higher maps it would feer boring. There would ne no "wow" effect from felling strong.



I support idea of making high maps special not unqiue by adding Implicit to highest map tier. making them unqiue would remove great currency sink from game.

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personal markets within their hideouts.

I don't really underst how you find them to work. Do I have to visit other player HO to buy item from him? OR i need special 'bench' in ho to find items?

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people playing temporary leagues with the intention of taking advantage of the temporary leagues market.....to make a profit in standard.

How they do it, why they do it and why is this bad?

Maybe GGG should consider hiring this guy as a consultant. I wish I could write posts like that.

I agree with the mapping part. There is so much they can do with unique maps and progression in them. I think adding more maps wouldn't be that hard in terms of content since most models already exist. There is a lot of potential for rewards either ranging from just increased drops, to a standard currency reward for running the unique map (like what used to be in Catacombs I believe).

On top of that as others pointed out it can be very possible to make more difficult end game maps with higher levels, while limiting player experience by offering better rewards. Rewards for completing them such as standard currency, or a recipe for a certain threshold item levels of that drop in those higher maps that is maybe twice as much regals or something else. You can take a lot of directions with incentives and rewards for players to actually play the harder content. People who reach that level of content will likely play it even with a worse reward if they've never done the content before as they already beaten all the previous content and will just do it out of challenge.

I don't like the idea of shops to be honest. I've played similar games which allowed this and I didn't like it. You didn't have tools like poe.trade for it and it just resulted in you setting up shop, going to sleep and then hope someone bought it. It worked out well because Americans logged on when I went to sleep (I'm in Europe). I don't think such a system is great. If you allow a system similar to this along with shop listing you're creating the same as what is essentially an auction house.

I don't really understand the question because it is very similar to poe.trade. Except now players can just set up shop, poe.trade makes a function to track listed shops and people will have an even easier time to buy stuff from players who are away and listed their most expensive items in it. I also am not sure how it will work considering all the different currencies you have (probably list everything below 3-4 exalted orbs in chaos?).