Concerning Divination Cards: One Supporters Insight Into The Issues

I have been seeing more and more posts recently concerning Divination Cards and the thoughts players have on them. These typically seem to be a (more-or-less) general consensus that the cards have rather poor drop rates, or that they have, in some other way, failed to live up to the expectations that GGG put out for them when they were first announced a few months ago.
One of the sentiments that seems to pop-up in each of these discussions is that players are unimpressed by the cards from a design standpoint. Many people seem to feel that those Highgate supporters have ‘let down’ the community by designing poor cards.




I would like to address some of these issues from the perspective of a Highgate Supporter that is trying to come up with a card that is NOT boring and uninspired. When I initially read about the Highgate supporter packs, I had just returned from a fairly long absence from PoE (about 6 months) where I was in a part of the world that, for many reasons, I could not play. I could browse the forums, but chose not to because it only made me want to play and that just was not possible. So the result was that I returned home and there was a plethora of news to catch up on. One of those things was the upcoming 2.0 expansion and the ongoing Closed Beta. Being a member of the original CB and Open Beta, I wanted to make sure I took advantage of the awesome perks of the supporter packs while they were still available (I REALLY wish I could have upgraded my packs back then…just didn’t have the cash though). I glanced over the stuff, saw the really cool Highgate Overlord (although I thought it was more of a static effect) and saw that I could create a new item for the game! Not just a new item, but an entirely new class of item! I had some extra money so I jumped within about 20 minutes of reading the news, because I thought that once the closed beta ended, the packs would be gone forever! In hindsight, I wish I would have been a bit clearer on what the divination cards entailed, but to be perfectly honest, I probably would have got it anyway because I am a sucker for cool MTXs.

I made a conscious decision to wait a while before I submitted my design. I jumped the gun with my Forsaken Masters submission and wanted to be in the first run, but since I don’t play as much as many people, my best character (at the time) was woefully underdeveloped for that type of map. (AdramelechThesummoner…..Templar summoner that you probably didn’t even notice if you have ran the map). So I wanted to wait for two things:

1. For me to have a better understanding of the new stuff in the game (items, skills, etc.)
2. For Act IV to be out so I could see how the cards actually worked so I could attempt to design one that fit what I envisioned. Plus, more new items and skills to consider.

I am really glad that I did decide to wait, because the way that the cards have been actualized in the game are really not what I had thought it would be initially. I imagined something a bit more….consistent. I thought that players would almost be able to rely on cards dropping in certain areas at a certain rate. But as someone else on the forums has said

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

all you really know is where they can't drop, as opposed to where they will.

So this really is not the level of consistency I was hoping for. I decided that I needed to have a very clear idea of what I wanted. Many of the Highgate supporters were also previous top tier supporters and have their own uniques in the game. This makes it a bit easier to pick what item they want to do a card on (at least, I would assume it does). I was not able to provide that level of support earlier, so I have no unique in the game that I feel connected to in some way. This is both a good and bad thing:
I am now slightly freer to look into other options. I think that if I had a unique already, I would want a card set that provides that item; but now I do not feel constrained to do so. However, this also means that I have to try much harder to come up with a card that I want to provide to the community. I needed to come up with some guidelines for myself to follow so I didn’t just run the risk of submitting a card for the unique I was currently trying to get but could not afford (drillneck, at the time).



I think that these are fairly good goals to strive for from a designer point of view. I am not looking to make something that is game breaking (a super powerful, perfect unique for example), I am not looking to make something that only benefits me (a niche item that I only want right now, or a troll item just to ‘grief’ other players), and I am not looking to create a design that breaks rules.
Meeting these goals, heck even meeting two of these goals, is much tougher than I originally envisioned. My initial idea was to have cards drop ‘map-only’ uniques outside of map zones. I thought that this would allow players that cannot otherwise consistently farm maps to be able to have some chance at getting one of those items that are normally not obtainable outside of the maps. I even suggested that the card be made available only once each day (when the vendors reset the ability for the card to drop could reset) to avoid players being able to over-farm the card. This was in an effort to prevent the cards from being so rare that you had a better chance of just getting one of the items to drop.

While the main goal here was to provide map only items to players that can’t always play in maps and the whole timer thing was just an idea to keep the card less rare from an RNG standpoint (my thought being that if it was limited to only once a day no matter what, then it could be have a much higher drop rate but the total number of cards any one player could get would still be limited), it seemed that GGG viewed this as two separate ideas. Both of the ideas were turned down. Apparently the idea to have the card only drop once a day was outside of my lane as the designer because “unfortunately we are unable to accept both your requests for a 'map-only unique' category and for a card based on a timer. This is as the divination cards theme, flavor and item are decided by the player, however the development team take the onus as to how frequently and where the card drops to maintain both consistency and balance.” (quoted from email).
To be honest I am not sure why the idea for a map-only unique was turned down. It seems to me that that is a well-defined subset of items (similar to the card that provides a league specific item). It is possible that by asking for a map-only unique as the reward, the card would be required to drop outside of maps for it to be worthwhile (which was the idea), and thus I was imposing a drop area on the design team. However, I have a suspicion that it was turned down simply because it was tied to another idea that would not work (because the second part had to do with when/where the cards could drop…ok, I get that), and it is easier to simply say no to everything instead of specifying what does not work and what does.

I thought for a while about this and during this point was when I really decided that the ‘fun’ level of my card would need to be what I relied on to make my card interesting and unique. My next idea was to have a card that gave a rotating set of rewards based off of the time the card was tuned in. If the card was turned in in the morning, you would get a morning-themed item (maybe a morning star base); if the set was turned in during the midnight block, then you got Midnight Bargain (kind of a no-brainer there). I had envisioned 4-6 periods of time each with a corresponding reward. I further suggested that it might be cool to provide a sort of riddle or something, or just introduce the card, without saying exactly how it worked and let the community figure it all out on their own. Similar to the recipe for The Goddess Scorned. I am still fairly certain that this idea would be possible, after all, there is clearly an in game clock or counter of some kind. Vendors and Masters both have specific times that they restock their wares or update daily quest availability. Why would it not be possible to allow the act IV NPC to do something similar? This idea was turned down because “we want players to know what to expect when they hand it in (even if the expectation is "Any Unique"). It has to be able to succinctly say what the reward is on the card.” (Quoted from email).

I kind of think that this is a BS response. First of all, there is a card that gives a reward that says “Item”. So saying that the card ‘needs’ to say what the reward will be is disingenuous. Could it be that they do not want the reward to be a mystery? Possibly, but then I think that the proper response would have been to say as much and work with me on a way to tailor the card to meet both my desires as the designer and the GGG design teams needs for clarity.
I have submitted a third idea that has nothing to do with a timer, has a very specific item that is already made, and that can be labeled succinctly. I doubt it makes it through.
So why is all of this important? I tell this story so that those people that are saying that the Highgate supporters are not doing a good job can slightly understand that GGG is putting so many constraints on the ability to make these cards unique or desirable that it is almost impossible to do so. They (GGG) are shooting down ideas without showing any willingness to work with the supporters at all. It almost seems as if the goal here is to frustrate the supporters enough that they just give up and submit a request for a card that provides a bland, uninspired item or an item that of course everyone wants, but that only those people that don’t really need the cards to get it, ever have a chance of getting.


I am not one to bitch without providing a possible solution. So:


So to those players that think that the Highgate supporters are doing a bad job: They supported the game in an effort to keep it free to play and keep the servers running. The ability to create an in game card is a by-product of that and if you honestly think you can do a better job, then go for it. Hell, I am not even suggesting that you actually do it. Post here. Let everyone see your ideas; if there are any of them that are good enough, I know several Highgate supporters that are in similar positions to me. I am sure that if your idea is as much better than everyone else’s as you seem to think it is, then someone will use it! I will even give you the credit if I do! The point is that GGG is making the process difficult to be creative in; there may not be much that we can do to make these cards more interesting.


Edit: Formatting; It's a lot of text, give me a break.

Good read... hope people take the time to do so.

Div cards were in a catch 22 from the start. If they were too common, they would ruin the game, and if they were too rare they wouldn't matter at all.

GGG has succeeded in letting people show their support by including something that a player can say "that's my card!" without that card actually changing the dynamics of the game too much.

If we think of them like the lore drops from TQ:IT, they're not doing such a bad job. It's when we start thinking that they should influence play that things get messy.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Good read... hope people take the time to do so.

Div cards were in a catch 22 from the start. If they were too common, they would ruin the game, and if they were too rare they wouldn't matter at all.

GGG has succeeded in letting people show their support by including something that a player can say "that's my card!" without that card actually changing the dynamics of the game too much.

If we think of them like the lore drops from TQ:IT, they're not doing such a bad job. It's when we start thinking that they should influence play that things get messy.

I agree that it seems there may not be away to properly balance the cards out. Like you said, if they are too common, then balance gets all wonky. GGG clearly decided to err on the side of caution and make them more rare than originally thought.

My issue however, is far less with the rarity or commonality of the cards and has much more to do with the limiting factors that GGG imposes on a semi-strict basis. As I mentioned, two of the ides that I had contained ideas VERY similar to cards that were already allowed in the game; or more appropriately might be to say that they were turned down for breaking design rules that other cards broke as well. and instead of working with me in an effort to come up with a plan that was agreeable to both sides, the GGG design team simply turned it down and moved on, leaving me to fend for myself on ideas.

I just thought that those players that are viewing the card design as a failure on the part of the supporters should be made aware that trying to come up with something inspired and fresh seems to be a sure way to get your submission denied. And I think this plays right into what you said in your post about players being able to say "that's my card!" If players have paid $1100 USD to create an item in game and they can't get the item they want, and if GGG passive aggressively refuses to work with them to come to a compromise, then eventually the players will just give up and request a boring, uninspired card so that they can say "that's my card!"


Also: thanks for taking the time to read the post. I know it was long, but I think that it needs to be said so everyone gets it.

The only balance that matters is Bots. GGG cannot introduce useful divination cards to the player unless it is account bound.

One option would be to allow supporters to design some cosmetic stuff for their cards kind of like the micro transactions (but have its own unique cosmetic appearance that cannot be purchased. This would make these cards valuable and would make both low level and high level characters want them. It can also make them fun. Just my thoughts.

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The__Answer wrote:

The only balance that matters is Bots. GGG cannot introduce useful divination cards to the player unless it is account bound.

I sincerely hope that GGG does not base balance decisions on an illegal aspect of the game. The correct answer is to be better at enforcing rules than to cause the rest of the playerbase to suffer.

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Eldyrus wrote:

One option would be to allow supporters to design some cosmetic stuff for their cards kind of like the micro transactions (but have its own unique cosmetic appearance that cannot be purchased. This would make these cards valuable and would make both low level and high level characters want them. It can also make them fun. Just my thoughts.

I like this idea. The biggest issue I see with this is that there is a ban on items that do not otherwise drop in the game. I would be willing to give this a shot, but my hopes are not high that they would accept it.

Very fascinating, great post.

I must say I agree with GGG in their response to your suggestions. Or at least I can understand why they responded that way.

I'd probably try to design a card that provided some temporary powerful one time consumable effect. But then again I totally get how that could be a non starter.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Very fascinating, great post.

I must say I agree with GGG in their response to your suggestions. Or at least I can understand why they responded that way.

I'd probably try to design a card that provided some temporary powerful one time consumable effect. But then again I totally get how that could be a non starter.

I can't say that I see no merit behind their decisions to turn down the requests. However, what bothers me is their unwillingness to work with me to find a solution. The fact that the don't just sort of rubs salt into the wound that is having multiple ideas turned down because they required some tweaking to make work. It just makes me think even more that they are more or less just saying no to anything that requires them to do work.

-I've started to read your post and will finish it soon (maybe I'll make a second reply after reading) because it's rare to see someone doing something constructive in the forum :) we need more ppl like you sir.


First of all my opinion on the cards:

I think there are really good cards and really bad cards nothing really in the middle. It's hit and miss.


The goods ones are the one that get me excited. As simple as that, if I get excited on the drop or If I get excited when I'm going to trade my fully collected pack, that's a good card.

Some exemple :

1. Jack in the box, I get a random unique item. Here I'm excited because it can be godly or... really bad. For me it's a good design for when I'll exchange the pack for my item, I'm all excited. Everytime I trade that card for my item I close my eyes and say "please please please be good this time" Unfortunatly I have not been lucky.... yet! But if that card get that kind of reaction from me, it is a good design. And if every card could be this exciting it would be wonderfull.

2.Gemcutter promise. Two reason why I like this one. First, have you ever seen a quality 20 gem drop? me never. So it made me think cards can be an interesting way to get something you will never get without them. Second reason, same as the Jack in the box, can be bad, can be a worthy gem to trade after, or can be good for my build and I'll be so pleased :) again this particular card got me excited.

3. The cards that give really specific things (again things that you could spend an entire life playing poe without seeing droping). A really specific and strong unique that drop rarely, a six linked armor. You won't be excited when you trade the card because you know what it will give you. But you will be excited for the drop as YOU know it is something rare, exotic and valuable that you could spend so much time trying to find but fail without the cards.


So thoses are the kind of cards that I like.

Now the one I dislike, some of them can still be good as drop and I'm happy generaly to have them, like the one that give a gemcutter prism. But the design is less interesting and I'm not excited when I trade them or when I see them dropping.

They are mainly the ones who drop currency. There is nothing exciting getting some chaos orbs for the cards. And you have no point in farming that particular card because you'll end farming more chaos orb just by randomly walking throught the entire game.


So that's my opinion for the cards, I'll finish reading your post OP.

p.s. I've heard that at one point GGG might start designing their own divination cards but not sure about it.

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GingerBeast wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Very fascinating, great post.

I must say I agree with GGG in their response to your suggestions. Or at least I can understand why they responded that way.

I'd probably try to design a card that provided some temporary powerful one time consumable effect. But then again I totally get how that could be a non starter.

I can't say that I see no merit behind their decisions to turn down the requests. However, what bothers me is their unwillingness to work with me to find a solution. The fact that the don't just sort of rubs salt into the wound that is having multiple ideas turned down because they required some tweaking to make work. It just makes me think even more that they are more or less just saying no to anything that requires them to do work.

That's understandable. Instead of just shooting it down maybe they should have offered something like instead of the reward being time based the ability for the card to drop being time based and then choosing just two of the options to represent midday and midnight for example.

I can see how your idea could work after a little tweaking.