Caustic Arrow
" +^ this. The hamster sort of guys cheering GGG mindlessly every time they spew another broken patch. It was usually up to Blizz, but now is the time GGG has to face their own fanboy army. |
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" Do you mean like rabies in d2? |
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There are 2 other issues I would like to highlight with poison arrow:
1) Totems, no other spell or attack in the game that deals damage (that I know of) cannot kill totems. If you are using poison arrow solely for the cloud, you cannot kill totems. That renders certain bosses and map mods as entirely wasteful and forces another skill into uses :/. 2) Groups, PA might be okay solo, in group you cannot carry your weight, especially VS bosses. Last edited by Waves_blade on Dec 12, 2013, 12:03:26 PM
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PA Ranger Build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/694045
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Hi all (haven't read the entire thread, so hopefully not repeating too much here),
Perhaps it is simply me, but I’m finding the entire DoT modifiers confusing about what does or doesn’t apply. The use of GGG “keywords” and reasoning seems inconsistent… especially when it comes to Poison Arrow. So let’s review The easy stuff: - “Increased Area Damage” modifiers work with Poison Arrow DoT … fair enough. - “Concentrated Effect” (ie area damage) support gem works with Poison Arrow DoT… yep cool. The questionable stuff: Chris: “Modifiers based on how the damage is dealt will apply as appropriate - for example, increased area damage and increased projectile damage will both apply to the poison clouds from Poison Arrow, as it fills an area and is an effect of a projectile.” 1) Totems… PA can now be used with totems. Mark_GGG commented that “Totem Damage” modifiers will buff the Chaos Damage, but didn’t state if “Totem Damage” would apply to both the initial hit and the Chaos DoT. Anyone know if this does increase the DoT (I haven’t had the chance to test yet)? 2) Projectile Damage… I find this modifier confusing (especially when used the word “Attack”). So PD does cause PA DoT to increase too, but to break it down further: a. Passive PD nodes increase the PA DoT… yep. b. Faster Projectiles support increases the PA DoT… yep. c. Slower Projectiles support increases the PA DoT… yep. d. Iron Grip node does not apply to PA DoT… because it states “Physical Damage” applying to “Projectile Attacks”… which is fine. e. Physical Projectile Attack Damage support does not increase the PA DoT… right? It states “Physical Projectile Attack Damage”. Wording overkill? Why not simply state “more Physical Damage”… it already contains the keywords “Projectile” and “Support” is there really a need to add in “Projectile Attack”? The wordy overkill creates more confusion than answers IMHO. f. Point Blank node/support do not work with the PA DoT… correct? This is because it states: “Projectile Attack” even though it states it deals “more damage”? This is the part that is rather confusing: how/why does “Projectile Damage” increase apply, but “Projectile Attack” (and damage caused by it) not apply? g. Chin Sol unique does not work with the PA DoT… correct? Why? It states “more Bow Damage at Close Range” and does a bow not fall into the category of “how the damage was dealt” as declared by Chris (see above)? Furthermore, does the damage actually come from the Bow itself or from the Projectile by the bow? How would allowing this to work with PA DoTs effect the game? It is riskier for Chin Sol users to be in close while waiting for DoT to tick away… and based on current PA DoT damage would this really be OP? h. Summary: Projectile Damage increases the PA DoT… why, I have no idea. It simply seems a bit rushed/convenient method of allowing players to boost it somehow to appease players Why would/should an increase in Projectile Damage effect a poison cloud anyway? IMO the skill needs overhauling and simplification, here are my suggestions: Background: in theory, the bow user attacks with their bow (speed, power, quantity) and deliver projectiles. Projectiles either cause direct damage or cause something else to happen (Explosion, Cloud etc). Direct damage can be modified by physical damage or projectile damage, whilst actions triggered by a projectile are unaffected by those modifiers and are modified by mechanics specific to their actions. - Poison Arrow falls in to the “cause something to happen” category. - Remove the damage on hit modifier… most players are using it for the DoT… it is too expensive, and limited damage, to use as an “on hit” bow skill. - Increase the DoT values again. - Change the % Quality modifier to something more unique to PA: %x quality reduces enemy movement speed by x%... or increases Area Damage. Maximising with a primary skill should be about faster kills and not "War of Attrition". - Any modifiers to Projectile Damage, Bow Damage, Physical Damage etc… should not work with it. - The above will mean that GMP/LMP will not lower the DoT damage, which might seem OP, but the high base mana cost combined with GMP/LMP mean that these supports are for convenience at the cost of a support gem slot. - Modifiers that effect it should be: DoT Damage, Duration, Area Damage and Chaos Damage. - “Added Chaos Damage” support should be enabled to support it by adding a “Damage Effectiveness” modifier to PA like you have with Incinerate. I think the above (especially removing Projectile Damage scaling references) would help simplify the PA skill, and modifiers, whilst hopefully clearing up some terminology and applications to other Bow/Projectile/DoT skills and modifiers. HTH Cheers PS – Yet to proof read the above (posting from work :P) and apologies for the formatting: copy-n-paste job. Chris Wilson: "Today was the proudest day of my life." Last edited by Kaysee on Dec 12, 2013, 8:08:25 PM
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"Projectile" and "Attack" are two separate 'keywords', they're both a subtype of Increased Damage (or Reduced/More/Less Damage, they're all the same).
Increased [Projectile] Damage is Increased Damage that applies to all Damage/DoT that fits the category [Projectile]. Increased [Projectile] [Attack] Damage is Increased Damage that applies to all Damage/DoT that fits both the [Projectile] and the [Attack] categories. Increased [Physical] [Projectile] [Attack] Damage requires that Damage/DoT to be Physical damage as well. The poison cloud is Projectile, but it's not Attack. That's why Projectile Damage does apply, and Projectile Attack Damage does not. Phys Proj doesn't apply because it's both not Physical Damage (the easiest way to rule it out), and it's not an Attack. "Physical Projectile Attack Damage" is not redundant. Remove any keyword and it suddenly applies to a much larger pool of Skills. Simply saying "more Physical Damage" means it applies to Ethereal Knives, the Puncture DoT and Cleave. There's a reason it's described exactly that way, and that reason is 'because that's what it does'. I think Chin Sol's "Bow Damage" doesn't apply because it implies Attack, similar to how Weapon Elemental Damage can also be listed as Elemental Attack Damage. Cannot say for sure though. Honestly I'm not sure Damage over Time is any clearer after the DoT patch :P It's Lightning Strike projectiles all over again. Last edited by Vipermagi on Dec 13, 2013, 7:57:24 AM
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To be blunt, I think the premise of this skill is inherently broken. It is my understanding that this only deals damage as long as the target stays within the cloud, yes? And only damage from one cloud applies, no? Then we're not talking about a classical Diablo 2 poison type skill at all: we're talking about Fire Wall.
The number 1 rule of all Firewalls: They stack. You stack pyres, and create a beautiful deathtrap in that zone. As anyone who used to use Immolation Arrow before the timer was implemented: This was a lot of fun. Pretty much the most fun. Only the anticipation of a meteor shower or the buildup of a massive hydra army compared. That's what Brian Boitano would do: leave the mana cost super high, lower the damage, maybe give it a penalty to attack speed, maybe make the cloud size a bit smaller, lower the duration a tad, remove the bonus +chaos% direct damage, and just let all the clouds created do damage. Like nature intended. Not to make the skill "stronger" or "weaker", no that's not the underlying issue here, seriously. No, it's about making this skill the most fun to use it possibly can be. Pyre stacking does that, and the numbers don't even matter. Can't you see the possibilities already? Poison Arrow minion masters. And if you ever add ranger pets to the game, hey they'll have a minion in stat right there to enable it. Mark/Qarl/Chris/Jesus, you make this happen for me, you bring meh back my Valkyrie+Immolation Arrow, and I will buy you a taco. -- ... or you can just go the boring "lower the mana cost to ice shot levels so people can spam it for the +50% chaos damage". It's justified, since its damage is throttled and costs time to activate, so it should not be costed like a direct damage spell. It should be more efficient. But that would be boring and no one would love it particularly. Last edited by LimitedRooster on Dec 15, 2013, 8:51:22 AM
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So then you just grab Quill Rain + LMP + Chain, and crash the game because you're making optimal use of Poison Arrow. Welp.
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Main issue is traps.
Because there are traps and traps nodes. PA (and lots of others) can't be powerful in normal use because it will be cheated with traps. Hard to balance with that. |
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" Aside from Quill Rain, there's really no point here that doesn't apply to every other single spell in the game already. The 50% less damage would have to apply to the clouds, obviously.. ... this does make kind of want to test that to see if that really could crash the game. Nothing stopping meh from doing it nao after all. I have the power to crash the game already? Hurm.... so op.... " Personally I think it more has to do with how it can be a passive force multiplier like totems, minions and auras are. Either it's worth it and everyone uses it or it isn't. I mean, 35% damage doesn't make or break a skill on its own. Last edited by LimitedRooster on Dec 15, 2013, 11:12:35 AM
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