Gem Fusion - Gem Vendor Recipes

I believe we are going in the wrong direction on some of the discussion.

We shouldn't be measuring gems in terms of Power - assuming no new gems being added - and instead we should be thinking that the more interesting and/or build-enabling gems (supports, buffs, etc) would probably be the ones accessible only through drops/recipes.

We should only be thinking in terms of Power IF GGG ever decided that Fireball is not meant to be endgame and adds an endgame "advanced" version for us to discover through recipes.
Such is not the case through, and the OP didn't really discuss adding new gems (merely gave a couple examples as just that - examples).

However, if I had to think up "advanced" versions of Gems, I'd say that I would NOT do it by hybridizing every single gem.
What I mean is, I wouldn't make ALL advanced Gems simply crossovers of other normal gems, like Fireball + Ice Spear = Frostfire Lance.

Instead, I'd probably go with Gem Prefixes, making it a variant of the original Gem.
Vaal would count as a Prefix, but this would remain obtainable exclusively through the current means.
We could then also have stuff like:
- Burst Fireball, which explodes at point-blank when cast (and again when it hits a target), bringing shotgun back into the game but requiring you to truly be in melee in order to do it well, but having a considerably shorter range.
- Pincer Ice Spear, which shoots two projectiles in opposite arcs that converge at a certain distance, causing an frozen explosion if it hits the same target, but completely missing targets that are just in front of you :)
- Frostfire Freezing Pulse, which cannot have its damage converted but uses the sum of its fire and cold damage to determine its chill, freeze and burn effects.

Some of these are brilliant ideas... but I'd argue that this is exactly what support gems are for.

That being said, for the sake of logic, I'll point out that many of those would work very well as hybridizations of Active+Support gems (Point Blank, Fork, Cold to Fire). Though to be clear, I'm still opposed to the idea.

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tsftd wrote:

Yes. It takes time for new players to get stuff in an ARPG. Ignoring the idea that this is probably intended, do you really think that introducing vendor recipes (which aren't referenced in-game, and only discoverable via trial-and-error or the wiki, etc) which themselves require specific combinations of gems is going to change this?

Yes, by prolonging the duration that players pick up and use gems, which I've already stated.

And they aren't found by just trial and error. From time to time players in Gameplay Help ask "need monies what best farm?", and we tell them the methods we use, the methods we avoid, and why. They find out the recipes from us on the forums and begin to follow them, and find out just about everything else because they definitely know about the wiki by then.

Bad idea to try to argue that it would be hard to discover.

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tsftd wrote:

The vast majority of gems are available for an alch pretty much instantly by shouting into the trade channel. I don't think that any non-quality, non-leveled gems are going for more than a chaos other than Empower or Enhance.

If you play in Standard, there are always people willing to just dump gems on you for free. I do it from time to time and have yet to pay for a gem. Sometimes there are the occasional free leveled versions, though they're usually no more than about level 12.

But that's boring; having all gems worth just about the same thing. But if you try trading for a recipe gem, you can either trade for it directly or indirectly by getting the required components. So this is one thing that should interest GGG since it gives more flavor to trading.

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tsftd wrote:

This isn't in any way, shape, or form what I said.

I also meant it figuratively. You claimed that forcing someone to use a recipe to get something isn't pleasant. I said that you can have fun doing that. Read between the lines:

Trade.

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tsftd wrote:

I use vendor recipes every day. However, as I said, forcing people to vendor to get gems isn't pleasant. Currently, there are only 4 things in the game solely obtainable by vendor recipe:

1) The Taming
2) The Goddess Scorned
3) Bandits quest reward change
4) Block chance Reduction (skill gem intended for PvP)

Actually, all but one of those can be obtained by trading. I doubt you can trade a bandit respec.

How many times have I mentioned or outright said that you can trade now?

It's become apparent to me that you aren't reading anything that I've posted thus far, or at least failed to comprehend it. Let me know when you have. I won't be reading any more of your posts until then.

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Nurvus wrote:

We should only be thinking in terms of Power IF GGG ever decided that Fireball is not meant to be endgame and adds an endgame "advanced" version for us to discover through recipes.
Such is not the case through, and the OP didn't really discuss adding new gems (merely gave a couple examples as just that - examples).

And what will the recipes do? We need examples, so how is that bringing the discussion in the wrong direction?

I also highly doubt that recipe gems should be stronger. This goes against what GGG wants, and that's a gem that isn't used except to level.

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Nurvus wrote:

Instead, I'd probably go with Gem Prefixes, making it a variant of the original Gem.
Vaal would count as a Prefix, but this would remain obtainable exclusively through the current means.

Vaal shouldn't be a prefix, unless it is intended to make it a vaal variant of the game which still requires souls. Or do you mean a different thing by "vaal"? And this goes in the direction of magical gems.

Don't quote me, but I think someone from GGG said they didn't like that idea. I might be wrong though.

There should be a recipe that lets you vendor 3 (maybe 5) random with the same color to create a new different gem with same color.
However to avoid manipulation you would have to receive the gem via a Box or something you have to open first.
This will make vendoring gems not absolutely useless. (Scroll Fragments)

I think there should be some recipe only gems that are maybe 5% to 10% better than normal drop gems, so nothing drastic but combine some of the features of the gems.
Maybe a Fireball + Added Lightning that creates a Lightning Ball which deals Lightning damage on hit and has an AOE explosion.
There could also be a drawback like can not Deal Fire Damage or you can not crit.
Some sort of Experimental Fusing Gems that would be a whole new item class for gems.

@Natharias
What I meant is that:
1 - Looking at the currently available gems, we shouldn't be thinking of separating gems in terms of Power because all gems should count as "end game".
1.1 - This means any recipe/drop-only gems would probably end up being the more interesting/build-enabling ones.
2 - IF we were to create this sort of "mix gems to unlock BETTER versions", then I STILL think we shouldn't forsake the original gem concepts.
Because when "hybrid" starts becoming a thing, we soon lose sight of the original concepts and suddenly everything is a watered version of everything else...

This means the concept of Fireball should stay end game worthy.
So my suggestion in that case would be adding "variants" represented through "Prefixes".
So from a Fireball you could get:
- Burst Fireball - shorter range but also explodes at cast.
- Inferno Fireball - Burn power and duration increased, direct damage decreased and explosion merely spreads any Burn applied by the single target hit.

In this context, Vaal could be considered a "Prefix", and thus not accumulating with other prefixes - in that case no Vaal Burst Fireball.

Now that I think about it, it's not unlike Diablo 3's Runes, where you have an original skill, and then 5 "up/sidegrades".

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Natharias wrote:

(04/30/15 07:41)
I also highly doubt that recipe gems should be stronger.

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Natharias wrote:

(04/29/15 04:44)
What we need are gems that can only be obtained by combining gems that make either better gems or gems that only have the "cannot drop" property.

...

And let's assume that recipe only gems are the most powerful in the game.

I read every post in threads that I comment on.

Being able to take easily found gems and vendor several of them to get a different easily found gem would not largely impact the economy or new players in a negative way (if anything should be positive), but would be a real help to self found play,playing when leagues are new, or longer races.

Being able to vendor several more rare gems for a single different rare gem would also be very helpful to self found play,longer races, or new leagues would be pretty nice also, but if this created too large of a negative impact on the economy it could just stick with common gems.

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TEBird wrote:

Being able to take easily found gems and vendor several of them to get a different easily found gem would not largely impact the economy or new players in a negative way (if anything should be positive), but would be a real help to self found play,playing when leagues are new, or longer races.

Being able to vendor several more rare gems for a single different rare gem would also be very helpful to self found play,longer races, or new leagues would be pretty nice also, but if this created too large of a negative impact on the economy it could just stick with common gems.

This is an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered. I don't really know enough about league play (only dabbled), or races (not my thing) or self-found (also not my thing) to say one way or the other. Honestly I'd guess that it'd be up to whether GGG wanted to change the balance in this way.

Regardless, quite a keen insight.

The goal is to start making it feel like we can fuse together and augment the base skills themselves.

Notice that, in time, more skills will be created, and the system can be slowly woven together to include these...

... until one day we actually accept it as such.



Or, every masterpiece starts with just a single stroke.

Sell 1 GMP plus 1 LMP plus 1 chaos orb for 1 Sacred Multiple Projectiles greem gem? Seriously?

Then you may figure out how broken it will be shooting 10 projectiles with CoC of Ethereal Knives, but with need of that kinda common 4-Link Green item instead of 5-Link.

EDIT: its really possible to do it although it needs some restrictions how those gems may fuse.