Is Shavronnes + Prism guardian combined OP/Broken?

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Boem wrote:

Which imo is the real fail, without shavronnes, the buffs are actually justified.

Very true Boem.

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SorakPoE wrote:

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

shavs alone is enough to make any build broken op.

the whole concept of low life without downsides is of course going to be the end all be all.
it literally has no down side and conveys pure benefits.


any build in the game can potentially double its dps by adding the phrase *low life* to its title.

Well, no downsides is not quite true. You can get way, way more ES by not using Shav's (and/or a bunch of Armor/Evasion)

You're also limited to ES as your primary health, which has it's own downsides relative to life.

Lastly it's very expensive.


Don't get me wrong, generally speaking a good build using Shav's will be stronger than non-Shav's builds, but it's not a free upgrade by any means.

to address your retort.

es is not explicitly inferior to life , es has its strengths and its weaknesses ( one of which is negated by shavs ) So you cant really claim it is a down side.

and while it is true you can get more es on other gear than on shavs 400 es is not a small number either and is largely compensated for in the amount of free auras you can rock using shavs in a low life context.

and i have said this time and again, the rarity of an item has no effect on balance, either you have it and are powerful, or you don't and are much less powerful. it wont change the fact that those who have are pretty much playing a different game with different options than those that dont.


things like the loss of 500 base or the issue of chaos resists can be made up in other ways. it is just the chest slot . and you can get a bunch of chaos resists and even es from other items that you dont have to waste a slot getting life on, which you would normally do since low life is technically a hybrid es life build.

you cant really compare it to 1000 es vaal regalas because said chest pieces aren't really used for hybrid es life builds unless one just happens to have one already. and that is largely because hybrid life es builds that lack a solaris or shavs need to stack life to deal with chaos.

Sure Salty, but things that are hard to get being better than things that are easy to get is just a normal part of any game like this.

A 500 pDPS dagger is strictly better than a 250 pDPS dagger, and is also much harder to get. You also have much more options with the former in terms of being able to run with minimal life / mana leech or running Hatred rather than Anger/Wrath for DPS.

I know it's not the same thing exactly, but having items that are difficult to get provide more options and be more powerful is kind of a 'duh' part of an ARPG. You want those 'dream' items that keep you chasing after them.

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SorakPoE wrote:

Sure Salty, but things that are hard to get being better than things that are easy to get is just a normal part of any game like this.

A 500 pDPS dagger is strictly better than a 250 pDPS dagger, and is also much harder to get. You also have much more options with the former in terms of being able to run with minimal life / mana leech or running Hatred rather than Anger/Wrath for DPS.

I know it's not the same thing exactly, but having items that are difficult to get provide more options and be more powerful is kind of a 'duh' part of an ARPG. You want those 'dream' items that keep you chasing after them.

its not even close , because in terms of dps weapons have increments of power , 500 is god tier sure , but there are steps between 250 and 500, with 400 being very close in power level while being much more managable.

The problem with the system is when you get things that have no near equal. and shavs has no near equal, this would be the case even if there was a cheaper lower level es chest that does the same thing because at the core being able to negate the one and only flaw of one of the most damaging builds in the game is not going to have an equal.

the mod chaos damage does not bypass ES is a hilariously broken mod and a bad idea, just like giving eleron the multi craft mod was a hilariously bad idea

and now we all get to see ggg try to destroy all sorts of things around it so that it *fits* into the game

flat physical nerf anyone? , 2 exa cost any one? perfect divine?

these things should'nt be nerfed , they should not have existed in the first place

Shavronne is OP/broken since forever. Every non-CI ES build is better with it - no contest.
True it gives tons of opportunities for more inventive builds, but its broken as hell. It should have been removed or changed long time ago. There's just no downside of the armor, and people keep exploiting one of the game mechanics. (a.k.a. dealing with chaos damage)...

Solaris Lorica looks a bit better - 17 lvl Armor, with crap stats, givving like 200 armor which is useless for LIFE/ES builds... THIS I found not OP, if you want to support like 7 Auras, go summoner, or ele wander or Low life Caster for the pain attunement... its your choice, just give up ES from Body Armor and go test builds, like you do sacrifice defences for the 6l Tabula Rasa. But giving the ability not to bypass the ES, and 500 ES is just broken as hell. Lets take a look at some of the other TOP uniques. Kaom - no sockets, Lighintg coil -60% light resist. Queen of the forest -25% move speed. Deaths oath - 450 chaos damage per sec.. i dont even need to continue, just take a look at the unique list. Hell, NO ONE, and i mean NOONE whos not full retarded will ever take the CI keystone if one is owner of Shavs... for the 15% more ES ?, its just not worth to go there even cause of the 5 extra points you have to spent. And thats the main reason why this is probably the most expensive unique in game. Armor should be something like this

"Chaos Damage does not bypass Energy shield"
"20% LESS Energy shield (or/and life - optional)"
(and no, not "reduced" so you can grab 2 nodes and be fine - "LESS")
or something like "-40% Chaos resistance" ... so you can stack equip with Chaos res, instead of stacking more ES, damage..

so should spend 5-6 more nodes for increase shield if don't want to be a walking meat, now its just go grab the Blood magic stone put 7-60% aura - have fun ! if you are atacker... if you are low life caster, why not take the pain attunement. Hell a friend of mine is carrying like a party of 5 people with low life wander build - no Blood magic... just all mana reserved, all life reserved, Ghost reaver with %life leech to sustain the ES, and main atack linked with blood magic gem and life gain on hit (cause u know life gain on hit still gains LIFE, despite taking the Ghost raever keystone), so with barely 100 HP left he was shooting around, chaining. Not that the build is not ingenious as HELL, Bow down! .. but please... so broken.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

its not even close , because in terms of dps weapons have increments of power , 500 is god tier sure , but there are steps between 250 and 500, with 400 being very close in power level while being much more managable.

Except that isn't really true. Maaaaybe now with the new meta-crafting mods we're approaching that, but prior to Forsaken Masters daggers that were 350+ pDPS were effectively as rare as 500 and so they might as well not have existed. Getting 350 required Eternal/Exalting and given how stupidly expensive it was to do so, it just wasn't something that was done except by guys who could afford to go whole hog to craft mirror level daggers.

Also, you can *absolutely* approximate Shavs by using a Solaris Lorica. My build in Ambush used a Lorica and had ~6000 ES - eventually I got a Shavs in standard and bumped that up to 7500 ES, and that was the only real difference. Getting 25% more ES is not that much of a game changer.

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SorakPoE wrote:

Except that isn't really true. Maaaaybe now with the new meta-crafting mods we're approaching that, but prior to Forsaken Masters daggers that were 350+ pDPS were effectively as rare as 500 and so they might as well not have existed. Getting 350 required Eternal/Exalting and given how stupidly expensive it was to do so, it just wasn't something that was done except by guys who could afford to go whole hog to craft mirror level daggers.

you can't possibly be saying a 350 dps dagger is as rare as a near perfect mirrior daggar

sure both required eternal exalting , but the 500 dps one took a whole magnitude more eternal exatling , in comparison that 350 one is alot cheaper.

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SorakPoE wrote:

Also, you can *absolutely* approximate Shavs by using a Solaris Lorica. My build in Ambush used a Lorica and had ~6000 ES - eventually I got a Shavs in standard and bumped that up to 7500 ES, and that was the only real difference. Getting 25% more ES is not that much of a game changer.

you dont get it, lorica is shavs , its not the other stats that make these items op, it is one stat, just one.
(again this is why i keep saying rarity is not a good balancer , since yes 1500 es is nothing when you have 6000)

now if you said you could run a low life build using a 1000 es chest piece with no problems , then that is one thing.

but you cant , therefore lorica and shavs have no equal. either you have them and your low life build is perfection, or you dont and your low life build does not function. there really is no middle ground , that one stat is what determines the viability of an entire mechanic , a mechanic that has potential roots in every build in the game.

this is different from niche build enabling uniques , the sheer scope of how that stat affects every build is insane.

shavs could have just that one stat and it would be op and sought after. as the other stats are largely immaterial since everything you could ever want comes from your auras .

hell, if ggg introduced a level 20 es armor with 50 es and that stat , i would make a low life build and never even think to buy a shavs.


in the end that stat itself is too absolute it too perfectly negates the one shortcoming of low life.

what are you complaining about then?

grab a lorica and do a low life build ffs, theyre like 2c ..

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

you can't possibly be saying a 350 dps dagger is as rare as a near perfect mirrior daggar

sure both required eternal exalting , but the 500 dps one took a whole magnitude more eternal exatling , in comparison that 350 one is alot cheaper.

If you were going to craft it yourself maybe, but look on XYZ in Standard. There are literally NO 350+ pDPS daggers that aren't either Mirror daggers or Mastercrafted (and the latter, just barely.)

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

you dont get it, lorica is shavs , its not the other stats that make these items op, it is one stat, just one.
(again this is why i keep saying rarity is not a good balancer , since yes 1500 es is nothing when you have 6000)


now if you said you could run a low life build using a 1000 es chest piece with no problems , then that is one thing.

but you cant , therefore lorica and shavs have no equal. either you have them and your low life build is perfection, or you dont and your low life build does not function. there really is no middle ground , that one stat is what determines the viability of an entire mechanic , a mechanic that has potential roots in every build in the game.

this is different from niche build enabling uniques , the sheer scope of how that stat affects every build is insane.

shavs could have just that one stat and it would be op and sought after. as the other stats are largely immaterial since everything you could ever want comes from your auras .

hell, if ggg introduced a level 20 es armor with 50 es and that stat , i would make a low life build and never even think to buy a shavs.


in the end that stat itself is too absolute it too perfectly negates the one shortcoming of low life.

I don't understand your problem then. Ask me for a Lorica on Standard or Rampage and I'll give you one for free. The fact that Lorica is a low attribute Str chest is just about the downside it needs for such a powerful stat and being cheap as hell.

What the hell is the difference between a level 20 / 50 ES chest and Lorica, besides that it is slightly more convenient?


Also you are wrong on the other count. It is entirely possible to do a low life build without Lorica/Shavs if you stack to 75 Chaos Res and leave yourself ~600 life and get some life regen. It's just not as optimal as using Shavs/Lorica because it prevents you from using a few uniques in other slots that are really good for low-life builds such as Maligaro's / Acuity and Lioneye's Paws / Rainbowstrides

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groelle wrote:

what are you complaining about then?

grab a lorica and do a low life build ffs, theyre like 2c ..

look i cant face plam any harder than hitting my head on my desk people.
again rarity is not a balancer. shavs is rare , but i dont hate shavs for its rarity

I hate shavs because of one mod.

I hate the mod and by extension i hate the things that have the mod. Shavs was the first to have it , so shavs is the poster child for it.

I cant stress this enough , I detest how the mod completely and perfectly negates the intended downside of low life.

before you had to carefully plan out your low life builds to make up for the extreme jump in power they gave. was the draw back a little extreme prior to shavs , sure i wont deny that. 35% life in this game is a death sentence.

but then to add a mod that takes that risk and instead of balancing it in a way in which it still has a defining presence in the mechanics of a low life build , the mod out right removes it from the equation , relegating it to being nothing more than that thing you reserve your auras on .

i have a 5l 6s lorica , and I am building a low life version of my current build , it will do 70% more damage , be 40% more tanky and have 25% more effective hitpoints.


yes you can make a no shavs / lorica low life build that is viable , people were doing it before either existed so it stands to reason that it is more than possible.

but viable doesnt mean what it used to mean back in the day. back when viable meant( can do 66 maps).

again the problem is how easily it removed the mechanical draw backs of low life
weighing the grand scheme of things, 1 chest piece for low life compensation, vs half of your gear slots seems like an absolute no contest.