Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

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Deankar wrote:

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Since you won't set a criteria on what "Winning" is, clearly stash tabs do not allow you to beat a boss more easily. You can kill the sames bosses with 4 tabs, vs 8 tabs.

But that's entirely wrong. The player with 8 tabs will make recipe items more easily and thus acquire better items faster than the player with 4 tabs, hence he will find the boss easier.

Sure, all it does is save you time. Just like how being able to buy currency saves you time you would have otherwise spent farming it. Thus, if stash tabs aren't pay to win, then being able to buy gear and currency also isn't. Both only save you time.

You only really need to save jewelry\belts in order to make the recipe so please don't try and tell me that you need more then a few spaces in your stash in order to "acquire" the same amount of wealth from using the recipe.

It doesn't really save you any time for the recipe, while it may save you some time if you like to mule uniques for alt characters, it doesn't offer anything a player can already do FOR FREE, by making another account.

The pure definition of pay to win is:



Does GGG allow you to buy gear, no they even have ways to detect and ban users for this.

As for time saver you can't begin to compare stash tabs to buying gear, you may never get a shavs or mjolner to drop for you or able to farm up enough currency in the leagues to afford them.

As for P2W there isn't technically such a thing in PoE because there isn't anything to win (pvp doesn't really count)

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Deankar wrote:

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Since you won't set a criteria on what "Winning" is, clearly stash tabs do not allow you to beat a boss more easily. You can kill the sames bosses with 4 tabs, vs 8 tabs.

But that's entirely wrong. The player with 8 tabs will make recipe items more easily and thus acquire better items faster than the player with 4 tabs, hence he will find the boss easier.

Sure, all it does is save you time. Just like how being able to buy currency saves you time you would have otherwise spent farming it. Thus, if stash tabs aren't pay to win, then being able to buy gear and currency also isn't. Both only save you time.

You only picked part of that sentence. As a whole it was correct. I can do the same with 8 stash tabs, as I can with around 4 or 5 mules on the same account.

Is converting normal tabs to premium also P2W? It allows you to organize tabs better, effectively saving time.

I think I need a better example of "advantage given equal baseline terms", Jackel, since you clearly didn't get it from my "play like me" example - so here goes:

assuming there are 2 "Jackel6672s". one here and one in a parallel universe.
assuming they both are playing Path Of Exile the exact same way, on the exact same rig, logging in for the exact same time, killing the exact same monsters simultaneously, and *hopefully* finding the exact same loot (because RNG exists in parallel universes too), then putting it in stash.
I'll put ... and "etc'" here, because there is surely some minor detail I forgot, and you'll cling into and make an entire post out of - while I want you to grasp the entire picture.

then after X time, "Jackel6672_1" buys a stash tab.
he now has an advantage over "Jackel6672_2", and that is undeniable fact.
and X can be given an arbitrary very-large number to make it easier for you to understand.

now, I'm not implying anything with "advantage".
not outright.
I'm willing to discuss in a civil manner if "advantage" equals "P2W" or not, and no it's not a trap - unlike your questions which indeed are.

because "P2W" doesn't really have a clear definition encompassing all its known forms.
"advantage" does. it's pretty straightforward.

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johnKeys wrote:

I think I need a better example of "advantage given equal baseline terms", Jackel, since you clearly didn't get it from my "play like me" example - so here goes:

assuming there are 2 "Jackel6672s". one here and one in a parallel universe.
assuming they both are playing Path Of Exile the exact same way, on the exact same rig, logging in for the exact same time, killing the exact same monsters simultaneously, and *hopefully* finding the exact same loot (because RNG exists in parallel universes too), then putting it in stash.
I'll put ... and "etc'" here, because there is surely some minor detail I forgot, and you'll cling into and make an entire post out of - while I want you to grasp the entire picture.

then after X time, "Jackel6672_1" buys a stash tab.
he now has an advantage over "Jackel6672_2", and that is undeniable fact.
and X can be given an arbitrary very-large number to make it easier for you to understand.

now, I'm not implying anything with "advantage".
not outright.
I'm willing to discuss in a civil manner if "advantage" equals "P2W" or not, and no it's not a trap - unlike your questions which indeed are.

because "P2W" doesn't really have a clear definition encompassing all its known forms.
"advantage" does. it's pretty straightforward.

So your argument is to bring in parallel universes, LOL. No one needs more then 4 stash tabs to be successful in this game, especially considering everyone can create as many accounts\mules\ect they want.

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johnKeys wrote:

I think I need a better example of "advantage given equal baseline terms", Jackel, since you clearly didn't get it from my "play like me" example - so here goes:

assuming there are 2 "Jackel6672s". one here and one in a parallel universe.
assuming they both are playing Path Of Exile the exact same way, on the exact same rig, logging in for the exact same time, killing the exact same monsters simultaneously, and *hopefully* finding the exact same loot (because RNG exists in parallel universes too), then putting it in stash.
I'll put ... and "etc'" here, because there is surely some minor detail I forgot, and you'll cling into and make an entire post out of - while I want you to grasp the entire picture.

Ok, that seems fine. They're exactly the same in every way at this point.

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then after X time, "Jackel6672_1" buys a stash tab.
he now has an advantage over "Jackel6672_2", and that is undeniable fact.
and X can be given an arbitrary very-large number to make it easier for you to understand.

Cool, personal insults.

Once a stash tab is bought, the two dimensions diverge, correct? They are no longer on the same path, and due to them not knowing about each other there is no perceived disadvantage yet. One ends up having to make another mule for items.

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now, I'm not implying anything with "advantage".
not outright.
I'm willing to discuss in a civil manner if "advantage" equals "P2W" or not, and no it's not a trap - unlike your questions which indeed are.

because "P2W" doesn't really have a clear definition encompassing all its known forms.
"advantage" does. it's pretty straightforward.

ad·van·tage
ədˈvan(t)ij/
noun
noun: advantage; plural noun: advantages

1.
a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.

Advantage has a set definition. If there is no outright advantage, then the person who does not have is not at a disadvantage. IF something is P2W it gives an advantage, and makes others disadvantaged in comparison. I have shown that you can accomplish the same results with mules. Mules also have some features that stash tabs don't, such as being able to link items to the forums (if tabs can do this, I have not found it yet.)

con·ven·ient
kənˈvēnyənt/
adjective
adjective: convenient

fitting in well with a person's needs, activities, and plans.

Stash tabs are convenient, but offer no real advantage in the game. Its only personal bias that says that Jackel 1 has an advantage over 2, even though 2 would not feel that way since he never made the purchase and plays in a different manner at this point.

Don't worry, I wont resort to trying to make personal attacks just to back up my statements.

It bugs me you won't answer whether buying character slots is P2W by your definition or not.

1) I made no deliberate personal attacks, and if "to make it easier for you to understand" offended you, I apologize.

2) when it comes to advantage, we aren't talking theoretical parallel dimensions. I only used that as an example, to explain what I meant by "advantage given equal baseline terms", and now you understand it.

when it comes to advantage, I can say from very practical personal experience, a stash tab > a mule.
something that becomes painfully clear once the "X" I mentioned is large enough to create a condition of a stash filled to the absolute brim (and then some), and you are attempting to either find a specific item (worst-case: gem) or transfer a piece of gear to a friend/between characters.

and I'm not going to mention the fact we - to the best of my knowledge - have a limit on the amount of free characters we can create. that's irrelevant at this point, and should not be discussed for now.

3) P2W is advantage, but the converse isn't true by default. which is precisely why I said I'm willing to discuss if the very real, very practical advantage of Stash Tabs is P2W.
I think it is. you think it isn't. but in order to start discussing this, you have to first agree Tabs are an advantage. something you seem afraid of doing, because you are perhaps thinking I am luring you into a trap. I'm not.

I'm trying to bring this discussion to equal ground, because right now in the "advantage" part I am above you, in the sense virtually anything you can claim in theory, I can counter by practice.
unless you can tell me, you actually tried playing as long as I have and all I have played, with just 4 stash tabs, a couple mules, and possible semi-work-arounds like multi-clienting, not being an option.

that likely won't be the case, once we move on to discuss "is Tabs' advantage P2W?".

I think it comes down to the league/ladder you're in and the playing style you enjoy. That is, it comes down to a fine, personal definition of P2W.

As far as broad distinctions go, I agree with John: P2W is about advantage, stash tabs offer an advantage, but stash tabs aren't necessarily P2W.

Take me for instance. I play exclusively in Standard, PvE. I have 7 extra stash tabs, which I see as a huge convenience. It is to my advantage to have extra stash tabs, but it isn't an advantage over others because I'm not competing on any front, climbing the ladder or building wealth, and playing non-competitively at my own leisure.

In my case I play to enjoy, and the stash tabs contribute to that enjoyment. But if I were to switch focus and strive to be one of the richest players around, an AXN, getting more stash tabs in pursuit of that aim then becomes P2W because I'm now competing against other players for stature.

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I think it comes down to the league/ladder you're in and the playing style you enjoy. That is, it comes down to a fine, personal definition of P2W.

You are right it is purely on the perceive of what the definition of P2W is because even though you can explain the definition of it people still think that for some reason anything you can spend money on provides an advantage.

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As far as broad distinctions go, I agree with John: P2W is about advantage, stash tabs offer an advantage, but stash tabs aren't necessarily P2W.

Ok if stash tabs offer an advantage, so does creating multiple accounts and using those characters\stash tabs to store gear. Therefore if someone can do the SAME THING for free that a player pays for, how is that P2W, let alone an advantage.

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Take me for instance. I play exclusively in Standard, PvE. I have 7 extra stash tabs, which I see as a huge convenience. It is to my advantage to have extra stash tabs, but it isn't an advantage over others because I'm not competing on any front, climbing the ladder or building wealth, and playing non-competitively at my own leisure.

With your 7 tabs that simply provides you with space to store gear in which you could do for FREE with creating multiple accounts.

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In my case I play to enjoy, and the stash tabs contribute to that enjoyment. But if I were to switch focus and strive to be one of the richest players around, an AXN, getting more stash tabs in pursuit of that aim then becomes P2W because I'm now competing against other players for stature.

So if you pay for stash tabs in order to be competitive it then becomes p2w? How does that seem logical considering you can still aim to compete against axn (wouldn't be wise to do so) without spending a single dime as stash tabs purchased = creating multiple accounts\characters.

Furthermore, please explain how you would even attempt to work towards his wealth because I personally don't think 1-5 stash tabs extra (or 7 in your case) will provide you with any sort of advantage or any ability to compete that wouldn't otherwise be possible with creating another account to store gear in.

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goetzjam wrote:

Ok if stash tabs offer an advantage, so does creating multiple accounts and using those characters\stash tabs to store gear. Therefore if someone can do the SAME THING for free that a player pays for, how is that P2W, let alone an advantage.

Well, in my case, my comp is on the slow side, and loading times take a long while. So I elect to pay for the convenience of extra stash tabs on the same account. Like I said, it's to my advantage.

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goetzjam wrote:

So if you pay for stash tabs in order to be competitive it then becomes p2w? How does that seem logical considering you can still aim to compete against axn (wouldn't be wise to do so) without spending a single dime as stash tabs purchased = creating multiple accounts\characters.

Furthermore, please explain how you would even attempt to work towards his wealth because I personally don't think 1-5 stash tabs extra (or 7 in your case) will provide you with any sort of advantage or any ability to compete that wouldn't otherwise be possible with creating another account to store gear in.

AXN is just an example of a rich player, since he's one of the few I know of. Not saying I'm gonna compete against his riches in my hypothetical scenario. Assuming I'm still on my less-than-optimal comp, I'd choose to buy extra tabs.

It becomes P2Wish in the perceived competitiveness that I'd now attribute to the game.

I hear what you're saying, but I also hear what John is saying in regards to stash tabs = advantage. Anyway, it's just my take on it, and probably my last on this matter since taking this further will make the discussion academic and niggling.

please read my definition and example of "advantage given equal baseline terms", goetzjam.

2 people who have a slow computer and unable to run several clients at a time.
2 people who can't be bothered to create "dummy emails" for alternate accounts.
2 people who have the same - maximum - amount of mules ....
2 people who ...

if one of these 2 people buys a stash tab - that's an advantage over the other.
both in theory and practice. given equal baseline terms.

advantage, is fact.

but Quixote77 in his earlier post, already started touching on the follow-up, real discussion:
is advantage from tabs = P2W ?

here, I have no facts. just an opinion.
and my opinion is, it depends on what you assume.

if - as Quixote mentioned - you assume competition/striving to reach some goal before others do - the answer is, in my opinion, a definite "yes".
because in competition every advantage counts, and Tabs are an advantage bought with money paid to GGG.

assuming no competition, is a trickier question.
you have an advantage that's paid for, but you are in essence not using that advantage to 1-up someone else. therefore here I'm more inclined to the "pay for convenience" term provided, or "borderline P2W".
tabs aren't that ridiculous boss-one-shotting sword you buy at the Korean MMO, that's for sure, but not having them is one serious pain, trust me.

be that as it may, there's no denying Stash Tabs stand out among all other MTX.
shiny weapons, cool decorations and cute pets, grant no advantages.