PoE vs D2 Endgame

I recently made a reply at length about this in another topic, but decided to write it again in this forum in a more constructive manner, to better understand the reasoning behind my suggestions.

I think the Devs at GGG got a lot of inspiration from D2 endgame when making SotV, as I see a lot of similarities between the two games when it comes to current end-game. Let me explain why;

A short summary of how it worked in D2 for those that wonders:

You had 3 key wardens that each dropped a key to open a portal to fight one of 3 bosses. Each boss dropped another piece, which when combined they opened another portal to fight the ultimate challenge in the game to claim the hellfire torch. Considered one of the best items in the game.

When you compare this to PoE. The 3 key wardens have been replaced with the corrupted areas. The 3 uber bosses have been replaced with Atziri. And the final bosses have been replaced with uber Atziri.

Why is this a problem?

In Diablo 2, every key warden you farmed had a chance to drop some of the best items in the game, including high runes. This made it possible for players to farm for upgrades while farming towards the end game bosses. It made it possible to farm for the desired piece to do end game bosses, and you had more varied farming routes.

Right now in PoE you do corrupted areas, and the most popular place to farm right now is doing Sarn over and over again until you find the corrupted area.
This is not really rewarding to the players that are trying to find the map fragments, because this area can't really drop anything of note compared to a high level map.

It forces players to choose between farming repetitive content, or do maps for exp and loot.
It's not like in D2 where you could farm for items and keys at the same time.

What I suggest:

Corrupted areas as I recall Chris say, are meant for players to get used to maps while they play through the game.

I would like to see the chest at the end of corrupted areas be replaced with a large chest or the strongboxes from ambush. This is to help new players gear up for maps, and better progress through the game (normal - merciless). They should not drop loot to the point they become better to farm than maps.
It should only be like a small boost for new players to feel like they have a better chance in the game. This would make the game seem less tedious, and as Chris have said before, it is important to keep player retention early in the game. This is one way to make the game feel more rewarding without going overboard. My idea with these chests is to help new players enjoy the game without getting the feeling of the game being unrewarding before they start with maps.

My next suggestion is to have all invasion bosses drop map fragments and vaal gems at the same rate current corrupted areas have, instead of the chests at the end.
This would make players more willing to kill invasion bosses during maps, and it would feel more rewarding knowing you can get the map fragments while you farm for exp and loot in maps.

I do not think it is a good idea to make players choose between farming the same content hours on end just to do end game, or to farm for items and exp. Players should feel like they are progressing to their goal all the time. Right now it is not possible to get the map fragments for Atziri while you do maps.

I think if you balance this right. Players can farm where they want when they want and get the same result.

New players would feel the game is more rewarding if they decide to venture into the corrupted areas, and I really do think they would find the game a lot more interesting.

I hope this wasn't too much waste of time, but I think I bring some valid points.

I feel like not a lot of people took the time to read my wall of text, so here's a short summary;

Make corrupted areas more rewarding for new players. Replace the chest at the end with a large chest or strongboxes from ambush.

Make it so map fragments and vaal gems drop from invasion bosses instead of the chest in corrupted areas.

This allows new players to have a better chance at finding upgrades when they do corrupted areas.

This allows players to do maps, and still have a chance at finding map fragments. Making players choose between farming for map fragments, or loot and exp is not a good idea.

This way everyone feels like they are progressing towards their goal all the time.
It won't feel so much like a grind.

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I think the Devs at GGG got a lot of inspiration from D2 endgame when making SotV, as I see a lot of similarities between the two games when it comes to current end-game. Let me explain why;

You shouldn't explain anything about this. If anyone has played Diablo II, then they should be able to see the similarities, if not direct rip offs, on their own. There are a number of things that would be correctly labeled as rip offs, and rightly so.

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Right now in PoE you do corrupted areas, and the most popular place to farm right now is doing Sarn over and over again until you find the corrupted area.
This is not really rewarding to the players that are trying to find the map fragments, because this area can't really drop anything of note compared to a high level map.

It forces players to choose between farming repetitive content, or do maps for exp and loot.
It's not like in D2 where you could farm for items and keys at the same time.

There are those who farm Sarn and there are those who are smart and farm Catacombs. Catacombs can spawn corrupted areas while offering full experience to all players.

Stupidity isn't very rewarding, and that's what players who farm Sarn for corrupted areas get. I'm surprised not to see at least three groups of Catacombs farming simply due to the higher level, but can understand why they would prefer the smaller map of City of Sarn. That's the trade off.

As you should see, it's possible to farm for everything at once.

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I would like to see the chest at the end of corrupted areas be replaced with a large chest or the strongboxes from ambush. This is to help new players gear up for maps, and better progress through the game (normal - merciless). They should not drop loot to the point they become better to farm than maps.

Why would you want to replace the only chest in the game that can drop a fragment of Atziri's map with something that wouldn't?

Also, why would you want to replace anything within the thing that it replaced? Corrupted areas replaced the large chest simply because it offers so much more. The chest would drop anywhere from 15-30 items, and you can easily get much more than that with a 40+% item drop corrupted area.

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My next suggestion is to have all invasion bosses drop map fragments and vaal gems at the same rate current corrupted areas have, instead of the chests at the end.
This would make players more willing to kill invasion bosses during maps, and it would feel more rewarding knowing you can get the map fragments while you farm for exp and loot in maps.

This would only apply to invasion. What about standard, hardcore, and ambush? Should we just make act bosses do this, and make this easy like Diablo II?

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I do not think it is a good idea to make players choose between farming the same content hours on end just to do end game, or to farm for items and exp. Players should feel like they are progressing to their goal all the time. Right now it is not possible to get the map fragments for Atziri while you do maps.

This game is about decision making. The sockets and gear "specificy" should show that.

Diablo was a very simple game with very simple rules. Diablo II was slightly more complex, and Diablo III was simpler than Diablo. Path of Exile shows a much deeper system the moment you pick up your starting weapon and gem to experienced players, and shows its demanding gameplay by level twenty. You can't just take a skill or change skills like in the Diablo series, you have to pick something and stick with it.

So keep in mind that this game is harsh and cruel. Hard and cruel games that use complex systems cannot hope to retain players that desire immediate satisfaction like quick-scoping in Call of Duty or powering through Diablo III in only a day.

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I feel like not a lot of people took the time to read my wall of text, so here's a short summary;

Then don't write so much. If you want to cater to people willing to read and think through responses, write pages of content. If you want short, if not curt, answers then you should write short thoughts.

Not all things can cater to all people.

The "endgame" you refer to in D2 wasn't introduced until the game was 6 years old. PoE has way more of an endgame now than D2 and D2x had for many years.

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Natharias wrote:

So keep in mind that this game is harsh and cruel. Hard and cruel games that use complex systems cannot hope to retain players that desire immediate satisfaction like quick-scoping in Call of Duty or powering through Diablo III in only a day.

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I feel like not a lot of people took the time to read my wall of text, so here's a short summary;

Then don't write so much. If you want to cater to people willing to read and think through responses, write pages of content. If you want short, if not curt, answers then you should write short thoughts.

Not all things can cater to all people.

if ggg want this game to be harsh and cruel, they should stick a price tag on it then because few people want to punish themselves while playing a video game. a game that is harsh and cruel but at the same time fair to you is another story.

im not bashing poe, there are things i dont like but i agree with general concept it is following so im ok with that. because in the end, with every game, it comes to you deciding whether you can cope with its cons because of its pros. if you see no cons in your fav game...gl...you will need it

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dealer13 wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

So keep in mind that this game is harsh and cruel. Hard and cruel games that use complex systems cannot hope to retain players that desire immediate satisfaction like quick-scoping in Call of Duty or powering through Diablo III in only a day.

"

I feel like not a lot of people took the time to read my wall of text, so here's a short summary;

Then don't write so much. If you want to cater to people willing to read and think through responses, write pages of content. If you want short, if not curt, answers then you should write short thoughts.

Not all things can cater to all people.

if ggg want this game to be harsh and cruel, they should stick a price tag on it then because few people want to punish themselves while playing a video game. a game that is harsh and cruel but at the same time fair to you is another story.

im not bashing poe, there are things i dont like but i agree with general concept it is following so im ok with that. because in the end, with every game, it comes to you deciding whether you can cope with its cons because of its pros. if you see no cons in your fav game...gl...you will need it

Then you haven't played Diablo II or Diablo III. This game is much harder than both of those. I would also argue that PoE is Diablo III compared to the original Diablo.

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Natharias wrote:

Then you haven't played Diablo II or Diablo III. This game is much harder than both of those. I would also argue that PoE is Diablo III compared to the original Diablo.

i did play d2 but only after lod 1.09 came out because i always was into fps. got hooked up for like 2-3 weeks after 1.10 came out which brought more action and some sort of tension because probly every mob was a threat, not like in poe where you can just steamroll whites.

but then i went back to fps because i was losing my shape (was in ut2004 local team at the time so i had to stay competetive). though i never played d2 online and did uber area only two times