Bows needs to be tweaked

harbinger bow can give way more crit than 40%.

My QR build is hitting abour 40%, if I had a good harbinger (close to 9-10% i could get 70-80% crit.

So yeah, i don't think harbingers are useless

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Real_Wolf wrote:

harbinger bow can give way more crit than 40%.

My QR build is hitting abour 40%, if I had a good harbinger (close to 9-10% i could get 70-80% crit.

So yeah, i don't think harbingers are useless

Hot damn that's a lot of +crit chance you must have.

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syrioforel wrote:

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Real_Wolf wrote:

harbinger bow can give way more crit than 40%.

My QR build is hitting abour 40%, if I had a good harbinger (close to 9-10% i could get 70-80% crit.

So yeah, i don't think harbingers are useless

Hot damn that's a lot of +crit chance you must have.

bow crit passive + two wheels of crit at shadow and just above + power charges....

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Real_Wolf wrote:

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syrioforel wrote:

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Real_Wolf wrote:

harbinger bow can give way more crit than 40%.

My QR build is hitting abour 40%, if I had a good harbinger (close to 9-10% i could get 70-80% crit.

So yeah, i don't think harbingers are useless

Hot damn that's a lot of +crit chance you must have.

bow crit passive + two wheels of crit at shadow and just above + power charges....

link tree? :D

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syrioforel wrote:

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Sairony wrote:

Hard to do a straight comparison because of the many aspects, what we can say however is that Thicket is 30% faster than Harbinger while Harbinger considering perfect crit chance rolls has 36.5% higher crit chance. I'd still go for the thicket in almost all cases because of it, there's just so many things in this game which benefits attacking fast above criting more often. This is also comparing a lvl 56 bow to what's designed to be the top of the line bow.

There are many things that benefit crit over attack speed as well, including elemental procs. There are other things still unstated: crit has downsides against reflected damage, while attack speed consumes more mana per second. For now, it might be simpler to ignore these things and just look at dps.

The contribution of crit is a quadratic one -- the two stats, multiplier and chance, are multiplied together to yield the increase in dps over the base dps that is added. With a harbinger bow you can easily hit 40% chance to crit and over 500 multiplier -- that's adding 160% of your base dps through crit mechanics (!!!).

Attack speed, on the other hand, contributes a linear factor -- twice as much attack speed means (modulo armor) twice the dps.

Lastly, the great thicket bows are usually of very high ilvl. I doubt you'll find an ilvl < 60 thicket bow that compares to a decent harbinger bow. It's possible, but it would have to be quite a special thing indeed.

For my build, I'd take a good harbinger bow over a good thicket anytime.

That's very true, but since it's all multiplicative factors the thicket is still not as much behind as one could easily assume ( percentage of hits that crits is less, but since it attack 30% faster we'll crit almost as often anyway ). What I should probably do to illustrate the point better is to just take a high end toon, smack a high end thicket & harbinger on it, and demonstrate that if you run lets say Anger Thicket wins, or if you have flat elemental mods on the weapon thicket wins, or if you have lets say Thunderfist thicket wins, or if you run Life Gain On Hit thicket wins etc.

While perhaps my suggestions was pretty poop, I do think something has to happen with bows in any case :)

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Sairony wrote:

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syrioforel wrote:

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Sairony wrote:

Hard to do a straight comparison because of the many aspects, what we can say however is that Thicket is 30% faster than Harbinger while Harbinger considering perfect crit chance rolls has 36.5% higher crit chance. I'd still go for the thicket in almost all cases because of it, there's just so many things in this game which benefits attacking fast above criting more often. This is also comparing a lvl 56 bow to what's designed to be the top of the line bow.

There are many things that benefit crit over attack speed as well, including elemental procs. There are other things still unstated: crit has downsides against reflected damage, while attack speed consumes more mana per second. For now, it might be simpler to ignore these things and just look at dps.

The contribution of crit is a quadratic one -- the two stats, multiplier and chance, are multiplied together to yield the increase in dps over the base dps that is added. With a harbinger bow you can easily hit 40% chance to crit and over 500 multiplier -- that's adding 160% of your base dps through crit mechanics (!!!).

Attack speed, on the other hand, contributes a linear factor -- twice as much attack speed means (modulo armor) twice the dps.

Lastly, the great thicket bows are usually of very high ilvl. I doubt you'll find an ilvl < 60 thicket bow that compares to a decent harbinger bow. It's possible, but it would have to be quite a special thing indeed.

For my build, I'd take a good harbinger bow over a good thicket anytime.

That's very true, but since it's all multiplicative factors the thicket is still not as much behind as one could easily assume ( percentage of hits that crits is less, but since it attack 30% faster we'll crit almost as often anyway ). What I should probably do to illustrate the point better is to just take a high end toon, smack a high end thicket & harbinger on it, and demonstrate that if you run lets say Anger Thicket wins, or if you have flat elemental mods on the weapon thicket wins, or if you have lets say Thunderfist thicket wins, or if you run Life Gain On Hit thicket wins etc.

While perhaps my suggestions was pretty poop, I do think something has to happen with bows in any case :)

That would be good data. Also you should link the passive tree used so we can see how the crit multiplier works out (as well as how any other dmg nodes might contribute).

Sairony, thats not true.

Thicket does not win in a crit race

Because of how powerful crit mult is, and how crit itself is very dependant on the local crit hit chance, you don't benefit from thickets aspd nearly as much.

You seem to just be taking the critical hit chance at face value, rather than looking at a critical hit based build which is where harbinger can take off.

And syrio, i can't link tree as I am at work so tree doesn't work here for some reason, but its a fairly simple build, start ranger, go along evasion route to the frenzy charge just above, go through to the bow crit nodes (there are quite a few), as well as the two 25% nodes by the awesome crit mult node, and then go up to shadow and grab those nodes, along with the patch above.

My build itself is soooo just enough its not viable HC in anyway, it uses asenaths gloves (temp chain on hit), volls, bereks ring, quill rain, blood dance, and that leaves it very weak overall. But it uses cold snap + storm call + cast on crit on split arrow, so that you literally have everything frozen/cold, temp chained, and the lightning gets you shock which gives mana leech, the frozen gives you life leech, and to benefit this even further the volls means high crit, the blood dance high hp regen, the full set of surgeon flasks (need 2 mana surgeons to survive the mana cost), and the huge aspd of the 5 frenzy (and 5 power chargse atm)

Put it this way, its a lot of fun, but its really not viable. It melts gigantic groups of enemies that it has NO business killing, even when there is a super life rare in the middle, but its single target dps (partly because my fireball isn't levelled up enough, and barrage only just came out) is so pitiful that it really can't kill bosses solo.

Still a lot of fun

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Sairony wrote:

Sure the Harbinger has higher potential local crit chance going for it, but the thickets significantly higher attack speed is arguably still going mean it will outperform the Harbinger for all realistic end game cases.

I even didnt read this wall of text futher!
WTF? Perfect Thicket outperforms perfect HARBINGER? Really? REALLY? Learn to play, noob! Local +50% crit on Harbinger Bow just CANT be outperformed in lategame, difference in resulting critical chance is HUGE, as well as difference in DPS, you also will freeze enemies left and right with hatred, shock with Lightning arrow and oneshot with Puncture. Lol, it's so funny.. if there is a bow that should be nerfed, it's definetely a Harbinger Bow.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Sairony wrote:

Sure the Harbinger has higher potential local crit chance going for it, but the thickets significantly higher attack speed is arguably still going mean it will outperform the Harbinger for all realistic end game cases.

I even didnt read this wall of text futher!
WTF? Perfect Thicket outperforms perfect HARBINGER? Really? REALLY? Learn to play, noob! Local +50% crit on Harbinger Bow just CANT be outperformed in lategame, difference in resulting critical chance is HUGE, as well as difference in DPS, you also will freeze enemies left and right with hatred, shock with Lightning arrow and oneshot with Puncture. Lol, it's so funny.. if there is a bow that should be nerfed, it's definetely a Harbinger Bow.

Why do you have to be so ill mannered?

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Sairony wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Sairony wrote:

Sure the Harbinger has higher potential local crit chance going for it, but the thickets significantly higher attack speed is arguably still going mean it will outperform the Harbinger for all realistic end game cases.

I even didnt read this wall of text futher!
WTF? Perfect Thicket outperforms perfect HARBINGER? Really? REALLY? Learn to play, noob! Local +50% crit on Harbinger Bow just CANT be outperformed in lategame, difference in resulting critical chance is HUGE, as well as difference in DPS, you also will freeze enemies left and right with hatred, shock with Lightning arrow and oneshot with Puncture. Lol, it's so funny.. if there is a bow that should be nerfed, it's definetely a Harbinger Bow.

Why do you have to be so ill mannered?

What he said wasn't ill mannered, it was direct, there is a difference

Also if you understood the maths, you would realize you are wrong. Attack speed is linear in increase, crit chance/crit multiplier is polynomial in increase, in other words, harbinger will definitely do a lot more damage late game with an equivalent build.

Then put into account how physical damage works (armor is useless on big hits, i.e. crits) and you will see why you are dead wrong

Thickets were "broken" when LA/LMP was broken, but that has since been addressed