Life Leech vs Life on Hit

Got confused about this myself, and now I more or less ended up with a quite useless build. I hit GR and VP at about the same time, as I hadn't checked the forums much beforehand. A shame of course, as they're both quite useless, but I'll live.

Both of these talents does seem somewhat under-powered atm. though. No players can really use them to any effect in their current state, so they're just sitting there half-misleading some people who don't yet know that they're worthless.

Anyway, as posted in another thread, comparing these exact two gems, Life on Hit vs. Life Leech, the latter, which is only a 130% Mana Cost Multiplier is seemingly draining mana much faster than the 150% MCM LoH. Tested this more than once with the exact same setup only switching the two stones and it seems like an obvious bug. Not sure if I've missed something obvious though, as I haven't played the game for that long.
- Hvabehar
Last edited by Calmethar on February 14, 2013 6:13 PM
'Leech' in Path of Exile is a technical term with a precise meaning. You can't treat it as a synonym for some informal expression like 'steal' or 'gain'. The description of Ghost Reaver is very clear: "Life Leech applies to Energy Shield instead of Life". Notice how the technical terms have capital letters. If you have an item, or skill, or passive that says "... Leeched back as Life", including the Life Leech support gem, then with Ghost Reaver you should read it as "... Leeched back as Energy Shield". Ghost Reaver has no other effects.


As for how VP + GR works, the idea is you focus on Energy Shield (probably taking Chaos Inoculation), which recovers all by itself out of combat, and use Life Leech to recharge your ES instantly in combat. You have to get a high Leech % and deal a lot of leechable damage for VP to make a big difference, but it certainly can be powerful on the right build.
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'Leech' in Path of Exile is a technical term with a precise meaning. You can't treat it as a synonym for some informal expression like 'steal' or 'gain'. The description of Ghost Reaver is very clear: "Life Leech applies to Energy Shield instead of Life". Notice how the technical terms have capital letters. If you have an item, or skill, or passive that says "... Leeched back as Life", including the Life Leech support gem, then with Ghost Reaver you should read it as "... Leeched back as Energy Shield". Ghost Reaver has no other effects.


As for how VP + GR works, the idea is you focus on Energy Shield (probably taking Chaos Inoculation), which recovers all by itself out of combat, and use Life Leech to recharge your ES instantly in combat. You have to get a high Leech % and deal a lot of leechable damage for VP to make a big difference, but it certainly can be powerful on the right build.

Every term have capital letters though, even such as "Mana Cost Multiplier" or "One Handed Damage", so that point is pretty moot.

The problem with GR is that it takes so much to leech any noticeable amount at all, as I see it at least. With only the option of the Life Leech gem it becomes more misleading than anything else. Achieving not much else than confusing players. Which can be rather rough, especially to casual and new players who doesn't have the time to read every piece of information beforehand or obtain enough respec points to retract such major build choices.

Especially as it seems that the Life Leech gem is even bugged draining too much mana on top of this issue. All in all it doesn't make much sense not to let GR affect Life on Hit as well, as it can't become too overpowered in any way seeing as it's already a possibility to leech much more when it comes to life and not energy shield. So the thoughts behind it aren't too obvious but mostly just confusing as is, sadly. And in addition both curses and other talents/stats are already restricted to leech Physical damage only, so ES leeching is already a good deal behind on that front to begin with.
- Hvabehar
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Imbalanxd wrote:
Otherwise you are just making mechanics needlessly obscure and opaque.


+1.
it is my personal opinion that these effects are very ambiguous and opaque. I am sure many will disagree with me, but I am betting almost every new player that didn't do research (read: nearly all new players) will run into this ambiguity.


These really could use some consistency and some clearing up.

We could also add in that Life on Hit only works on hits that are not hits from spells.
Life Leech only works on melee hits, except when a life leech gem is used.

There really is obscurity around these two effects.
Last edited by colexian on February 14, 2013 8:24 PM
How should it be:

- Whatever the game designers want it to be.

How it is:

- The way the game designers want it to be.

How you think it should be:

- Different from the way the game designers want it to be.

I think it's perfectly fine for a support gem to NOT support CI builds or Ghost Reaver builds.

However, there is ONE thing I will give you - I think Chaos Innoculation and Ghost Reaver should have either another keystone or a nearby passive that grants what you're asking - all life gains are granted to your Energy Shield instead of Life. It would have to come at a heavy cost though, such as automatically reducing all of those gains by a huge percentage, or reducing your overall energy shield by a percentage (like 20% AFTER all other math).
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colexian wrote:
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Imbalanxd wrote:
Otherwise you are just making mechanics needlessly obscure and opaque.


+1.
it is my personal opinion that these effects are very ambiguous and opaque. I am sure many will disagree with me, but I am betting almost every new player that didn't do research (read: nearly all new players) will run into this ambiguity.


These really could use some consistency and some clearing up.

We could also add in that Life on Hit only works on hits that are not hits from spells.
Life Leech only works on melee hits, except when a life leech gem is used.

There really is obscurity around these two effects.

Your sig. I love it.

OnT: Life on hit is as stated not leeching, you gain health when you strike an enemy. Notice the word "Gain". Leech is in no shape or form a synonym with Gain, So to be quite frank; mixing them up just means you don't understand the mechanics correctly.
Gaining health on hit means you gain health as long as you hit them. Life Leech is only dependant on how much damage you deal.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't clarify it, though.



-Generic forum signature here-
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Skouros wrote:

I think it's perfectly fine for a support gem to NOT support CI builds or Ghost Reaver builds.

However, there is ONE thing I will give you - I think Chaos Innoculation and Ghost Reaver should have either another keystone or a nearby passive that grants what you're asking - all life gains are granted to your Energy Shield instead of Life. It would have to come at a heavy cost though, such as automatically reducing all of those gains by a huge percentage, or reducing your overall energy shield by a percentage (like 20% AFTER all other math).
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Stentuff wrote:
OnT: Life on hit is as stated not leeching, you gain health when you strike an enemy. Notice the word "Gain". Leech is in no shape or form a synonym with Gain, So to be quite frank; mixing them up just means you don't understand the mechanics correctly.
Gaining health on hit means you gain health as long as you hit them. Life Leech is only dependant on how much damage you deal.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't clarify it, though.
Aye, it really seems they should. And another keystone could seem like one option for a good and fair solution to a part of the problem at least.

Question though, as I haven't been following the game very long. Does Life Gain on Hit work with spells at all, or is it only in connection with Ghost Reaver that it doesn't work (as it's restricted to leeching specifically)?

It's really not specified at all in any way, and there seems to be a lot of conflicting information around the forum. Same goes when it comes to Life Gain on Kill I guess.

On top of this there's a threshold for even being able to "leech" at all seemingly (according to some)?

So that you have to push enough offensive stats or have good enough items to leech at all, otherwise your only option with a leech build is grinding trivial (thus boring) lower level areas?


It would seem that this is all way too unclear, as mentioned previously :/

Does any form of "Ghost Reaver" build even work at all to any decent extend or is the keystone just more or less worthless in general?

About the word quibbling (in lack of knowledge of a better term, no offense intended towards anyone). It's a fair point to make when it comes to the specific words of leech, gain and so forth, but it doesn't really solve the actual essential problem it seems, as it remains ambiguous to most. And you could argue that something like "Low Life" in regard to a talent like "Pain Attunement" isn't specified at all either. So the point becomes moot if you find the right examples. Why I think it's only fair to say that there's a bit of a lack when it comes to item/stat/talent description and clarification in-game, especially considering casual and newer players.
- Hvabehar
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colexian wrote:
We could also add in that Life on Hit only works on hits that are not hits from spells.


Except that 'life on hit' is not the wording that is actually used in-game. On every source of 'life on hit', what you actually see is '+X Life gained for each enemy hit by your Attacks'. That's pretty clear once you know the difference between Attacks and Spells. (The only possible ambiguity there is what happens if you hit the same enemy multiple times with the same Attack.)

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Life Leech only works on melee hits


No, it works on physical damage caused by Attacks. Again, if you actually have an item or passive with this, it says '+X% of Physical Attack Damage Leeched back as Life'. (I can't remember what the Life Leech support gem says exactly, but I'm sure it talks about 'Damage' instead of 'Physical Attack Damage'.)



It's not GGG's fault if we start using terms like 'leech' as shorthand, give them some meaning based on what we want them to mean, and forget what is actually written on the items and passives.
Last edited by Incompetent on February 14, 2013 10:03 PM
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It's not GGG's fault if we start using terms like 'leech' as shorthand, give them some meaning based on what we want them to mean, and forget what is actually written on the items and passives.


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GGG wrote:
Life Leech restores Energy Shield instead of Life.


Sorry, no matter how you slice it... Instances of life leech and life on hit have several different stated effects, depending on where you read it.
Yes, they almost always do the same thing (Life Leech gem seems to be the exception) but it is worded many different ways.
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colexian wrote:
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GGG wrote:
Life Leech restores Energy Shield instead of Life.


Sorry, no matter how you slice it... Instances of life leech and life on hit have several different stated effects, depending on where you read it.
Yes, they almost always do the same thing (Life Leech gem seems to be the exception) but it is worded many different ways.


That's because Ghost Reaver works with all sources of Life Leech, including the Life Leech support gem. What I'm saying is that thinking about 'leech' as a general 'concept I know from other ARPGs, also known as life steal, life gain, blah blah blah' isn't going to tell you what 'Leech' means in Path of Exile.

There's only one kind of 'life gain on hit' in this game AFAIK, and it's always worded the same way.

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