about y lowering hp =/= es in upcoming patch

not gonna bother going into how it'll affect RF builds since it's already been brought up countless times, all i wanna say here is :

GGG says they're lowering hp and es because mob dmg values will be decreased and hence armor will be more effective, hence it'll be better overall even if hp/es is lowered. im assuming they neglected one glaring point... hp builds HAVE high armor to begin with, because they use armor gear or eva gear with iron reflexes. so a direct increase in armor effectives vs decrease in hp does benefit them, BUT for ES builds, most of us use pieces with pure es, so essentially we have almost no armor at all. so basically lowering ES is just a huge blow to those who rely on pure ES, with no substantial gain, if at all, from the increased effectiveness of armor... because we have NO armor. how is that fair?

obviously i have no idea how much es % will be reduced in comparison to hp, but i hope GGG has already thought of what i'm saying, because it would really suck for those who have invested heavily into pure ES gears otherwise.

Granite Flask, learn to use two.

Do you have the body and soul nodes? Do you use granite flasks? If the answer is yes, you beneifit. I'm going to also assume you're discussing CI. CI can grant you oh around 6-7k ES rather easily pre patch. This is more than most hp users get. Therefore, you do benefit as well.

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mazul wrote:

Granite Flask, learn to use two.

so to benefit from a supposed "buff overall" i have to use granite flasks instead of all quicksilver flasks which helps me with my speed runs? and granite flasks are used by hp builds too, so they still have added advantage at no trade off.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Do you have the body and soul nodes? Do you use granite flasks? If the answer is yes, you beneifit. I'm going to also assume you're discussing CI. CI can grant you oh around 6-7k ES rather easily pre patch. This is more than most hp users get. Therefore, you do benefit as well.

body n soul nodes give 20% more armor... but when your base armor is almost nothing, what good does that do? as for granite flasks, refer above.

i was discussing both CI n non-CI. yes u get ES easier than u get hp mostly because of the infused shield node, but u have minimal armor, and are vulnerable to status effects like stun, puncture, frozen etc to name a few. so it was a pretty even playing field to begin with.

and as for non-ci users aka the low life RF users... they get hit the hardest since they dont have infused shield and most use shavs which already does not have high ES to begin with.

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0rochi wrote:

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mazul wrote:

Granite Flask, learn to use two.

so to benefit from a supposed "buff overall" i have to use granite flasks instead of all quicksilver flasks which helps me with my speed runs? and granite flasks are used by hp builds too, so they still have added advantage at no trade off.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Do you have the body and soul nodes? Do you use granite flasks? If the answer is yes, you beneifit. I'm going to also assume you're discussing CI. CI can grant you oh around 6-7k ES rather easily pre patch. This is more than most hp users get. Therefore, you do benefit as well.

body n soul nodes give 20% more armor... but when your base armor is almost nothing, what good does that do? as for granite flasks, refer above.

i was discussing both CI n non-CI. yes u get ES easier than u get hp mostly because of the infused shield node, but u have minimal armor, and are vulnerable to status effects like stun, puncture, frozen etc to name a few. so it was a pretty even playing field to begin with.

and as for non-ci users aka the low life RF users... they get hit the hardest since they dont have infused shield and most use shavs which already does not have high ES to begin with.

You mean like other builds who already use 2 granite flasks + 2 quicksilveer flasks?
Yeah, start learning to use them.

The trade-off is that as long as Kaom's is not allowed, Energy builds get higher "hp" than life builds.

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mazul wrote:

You mean like other builds who already use 2 granite flasks + 2 quicksilveer flasks?
Yeah, start learning to use them.

The trade-off is that as long as Kaom's is not allowed, Energy builds get higher "hp" than life builds.

u make it sound like i have never used granite flasks. i have, even before they were nerfed, i rather not use them because i like the flexibility of not NEEDING to use them. isnt that what GGG wants in the first place, no one trick pony? so if u're forced to use granite flasks in every single build, thee's something wrong right there. and that still doesnt rebute my point that hp builds already use high armor pieces together with granite flasks to begin with, they'll benefit a lot more than ES builds.

why bring up kaoms not being allowed? that's only for one new league and doesnt apply to everyone. and again, kaoms is "THE" armor because u can easily get 10k hp with it and still have 20k+ armor, u wont see ES builds having 10k es with that kind of armor. are u familiar with the term "effective hp" aka Ehp? if u are then my point should be very clear.

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0rochi wrote:

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mazul wrote:

You mean like other builds who already use 2 granite flasks + 2 quicksilveer flasks?
Yeah, start learning to use them.

The trade-off is that as long as Kaom's is not allowed, Energy builds get higher "hp" than life builds.

u make it sound like i have never used granite flasks. i have, even before they were nerfed, i rather not use them because i like the flexibility of not NEEDING to use them. isnt that what GGG wants in the first place, no one trick pony? so if u're forced to use granite flasks in every single build, thee's something wrong right there. and that still doesnt rebute my point that hp builds already use high armor pieces together with granite flasks to begin with, they'll benefit a lot more than ES builds.

why bring up kaoms not being allowed? that's only for one new league and doesnt apply to everyone. and again, kaoms is "THE" armor because u can easily get 10k hp with it and still have 20k+ armor, u wont see ES builds having 10k es with that kind of armor. are u familiar with the term "effective hp" aka Ehp? if u are then my point should be very clear.

Because for the 2 new leagues, it won't be allowed. In SC and HC, I agree: Kaom's is a retardedly OP piece of gear.

I suppose I understand that you don't like granite flask to be mandatory. I disagreee though, I don't mind that quicksilver flasks and granite flasks are mandatory.

I am not sure if life players will relatively gain more given that they use base armor + granite vs energy users who use just granites, due to the diminishing effects of having extra armor.

Um, body and soul clusters also give ES, not just AR. If you wish to only use quicksilvers, that's your deal btw. You're purposefully forgoing defense for faster speed runs. You have your choices.

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mazul wrote:

Because for the 2 new leagues, it won't be allowed. In SC and HC, I agree: Kaom's is a retardedly OP piece of gear.

I suppose I understand that you don't like granite flask to be mandatory. I disagreee though, I don't mind that quicksilver flasks and granite flasks are mandatory.

I am not sure if life players will relatively gain more given that they use base armor + granite vs energy users who use just granites, due to the diminishing effects of having extra armor.

i dont plan on playing the new leagues because i dont have the time nor energy to compete in races over and over again. nor do my friends. hence i find saying kaoms will not be allowed is not applicable to me, or the others who dont play for races. if GGG specifically reduced hp/es only in leagues where kaoms are not allowed then i could care less :)

diminishing effects yes, but popping a granite on my ranger gives 12k armor, and 12% MORE phy reduction, total 65% phy reduction. popping a granite on my witch gives 10k armor, and 30% more phy reduction, total 32% phy reduction. and my ranger isnt even specced for armor, mostly hp nodes.

and my witch even with 2 x body n soul nodes still ends up with less than 1/2 the phy dmg reduction of a normal hp build charc.

that's what i'm saying, the base armor/eva on a none-ES build, added together with grace n iron reflexes, is a LOT more than what a ES build would get from a granite flask. so if GGG reduces ES as much as they reduce HP, ES builds lose out simply because they wont benefit as much from armor.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Um, body and soul clusters also give ES, not just AR. If you wish to only use quicksilvers, that's your deal btw. You're purposefully forgoing defense for faster speed runs. You have your choices.

yea and i have both body and soul nodes on my witch. which gives me a grand total of 300ish armor, 2% phy dmg reduction. as i mentioned in my above post, using a granite flask pumps it up by 30%, giving me 32% total phy dmg reduction. (and although the actual dmg reduction formula is reduction = armour / (armour + 12*damage), lets just take the % listed on charc display screen for simplicity sake)

i have no use for granites currently because nothing can 1 hit me with my current ES, not even carnage in colonnade. depending on how much GGG reduces ES, i may or may not use granite flasks, which brings up my 1st point :
i could forgo defense for faster runs before, now i cant, while there is no change for hp builds who already use granites or have enough base armor without granites to continue ignoring it. that already affects ES builds more than hp builds negatively.

2nd point :
even after usage of granite flasks, a ES build wil have less than 1/2 the phy reduction (from armor) of the normal hp build. now that armor is being buffed to be even better effective hp, it means hp builds will benefit from their higher base armor from items. ES builds will not.

using granite flasks does not make up for that difference.