Painseeker & Secrets of Sufferings Interaction

How do these work together?

Painseeker: Critical Strikes do not inherently inflict non-Damaging Ailments.
Inflict non-Damaging Ailments as though dealing 200% more Damage

Secrets of Suffering:Cannot Ignite, Chill, Freeze or Shock
Critical Strikes inflict Scorch, Brittle and Sapped

As i understand it, both should increase my damage, since i also use the critical mastery 50% increased effect of non damaging ailments you inflict with critical strikes.
Unfortunytly PoB shows nothing so im unsure.

But doesnt Scorch negate the Elemental Mastery Hits have 15% chance to treat enemy monster elemental resistance values as inverted?

Build is LS Slayer.


Edit:

Switched betweens these Gloves and Painseeker feels weaker.

I think you have two separate questions here. Do they work together, and is scorched good with the inverted res mastery.

What is your source for secrets of suffering? I'm not finding much of this combination on the meta currently. I think it does work, but perhaps is not that useful in the current meta. POB can sometime miss certain things, although it is usually very good with picking up interactions.

Often it is possible to reach max ailment values without needing "as if dealing "x" more damage" or increased effect. It might be that your POB is already calculating these max ailment values.

Scorch caps at 30, brittle at 6 and sapped at 20. It might be good on bosses if you are not reaching those values?

As for scorched, it may be that it is not always a great combination with the inversion mastery. I believe it applies before the inversion is done. However, it is not a universally bad combination. Just that they don't synergies completely. It depends on variables such as the enemies base resistance, uptime and magnitude on scorched, as well as variance and probability functions, of the percentage chance of the inversion proccing.

As an example, at max 30 scorched and averaging the .15 inversion chance:

There is a mathematical function that ties together the status of having both in effect, or just scorched. Then the enemy resistance value where these are on average better.

These values of enemy resistance are:

>30 = Both scorched and inverted mastery best
30 = Both or just scorched
<30 = Just scorched

There is also a breakpoint where just inverted becomes stronger than scorched, but it goes beyond what max res enemies can have in the game in this case. However, with more inversion chance, it can become relevant. There are some sources of 100% inversion currently. Using those, there would be complete anti synergy, where the breakpoint would be exact 15 enemy res where either could be used. Above 15, inversion is better, below 15 scorched is better.

In practicality, to get value for spending the point on the mastery you will also need the resistance to be a certain amount higher than 30, to account for it being more valuable than something else you might take instead.

My guess would be, in your case, it would be useful to have both for endgame bossing, but probably not that useful for mapping. It might be fine to run without respeccing. I don't know the resistances of mobs in maps, but even at 0, there is not a huge difference between having both. It's only if they are having negative res, from other sources that it would start to become a problem. Optimally there might be stronger points, particularly for mapping. Your POB can likely tell you how much the inversion mastery is giving you against boss resistance by toggling it in that configuration, and whether that dps increase is enough to be more useful than other points or other options.

"

Belegur85#5784 wrote:

What is your source for secrets of suffering?

Thx for the explanation.

The lines i struggled with where these:
Critical Strikes do not inherently inflict non-Damaging Ailments
vs
Critical Strikes inflict Scorch, Brittle and Sapped


Wondered how i would inflict Sapping etc since they are non damagin ailments.
Seems that Taming & Yoke overrule the Painseeker line since im 100% inflicting all 3 with crits.

Yep, I see what you mean, I find it confusing too. I think it does work though, because you can see the ailment icons applying to the enemies? I don't think you have any other sources that would be applying.

I think the reason it works is a technicality. They are non-damaging ailments but they are not "inherently" being applied. It is the same thing applying them, in both cases, the critical strike, but it is not an inherent property with secrets of suffering.

If it was worded something like "Critical Strikes "inherently" inflict Scorch, Brittle and Sapped", then it probably wouldn't work, although it may no longer make sense in the terminology of the word.

Very technical, but I believe this is the reason. Largely because you say it is working and I've seen another thread from years ago saying at that time they did work together, so I assume they still do. Otherwise I agree the wording is somewhat open to interpretation for players unless there are other known similar mechanics.

Yes, the icons are there.

Wanna hear something funny/stupid?
I was running Skitterbots the whole time.
Added the Cluster Jewel somewhere in the mix after seeing it on a good build and never gave it a second tought.

Without Skitterbots chance to Scorch is 98%.
Guess i dont need it anymore.

I don't follow exactly. Your chance to scorch will be directly coming from your chance to crit isn't it?

Skitterbots will be good because you are getting the extra ailments that you can't apply yourself and will also increase the ailment count on your amulet as well. Is that right?

Sounds like an interesting build.

(I think I understand, you upgraded to this instead of skitterbots, is both possible?)

"

Belegur85#5784 wrote:

(I think I understand, you upgraded to this instead of skitterbots, is both possible?)

I started with Skitterbots, than added Secrets of Suffering later.
As i understand it, i dont need Skitterbots anymore, because the Jewel states: "Cannot inflict Ignite, Shock & Chill." Thats sounds absolute.

If it would state: "YOU cannot inflict" i would assume Skitterbots can inflict Shock instead.

In PoB Skitterbots increase DPS by only 5%.
4% i can get by Empower Anger which leaves me with mana for something else.

Now youre making me unsure again.

Lol. It should work, wiki says it does. You might be right though, there could be better options than using your reservation for it.

If it really works, shouldnt PoB show me 15% inceased DPS, since shock increases damage taken by 15%?

Thats with Skittyboys, without activating Shock in configs. (Changes nothing either)



edit:
ok, now im really confused.
i deactivated Vessels of the Vinktaar to get real shock value.
And checking Skitterbots now giving me 25% more damage without the flask active.

"

LoTharios#3338 wrote:

As i understand it, i dont need Skitterbots anymore, because the Jewel states: "Cannot inflict Ignite, Shock & Chill." Thats sounds absolute.

If it would state: "YOU cannot inflict" i would assume Skitterbots can inflict Shock instead.

In PoB Skitterbots increase DPS by only 5%.
4% i can get by Empower Anger which leaves me with mana for something else.

Secrets of Suffering doesn't affect Skitterbots, because like most modifiers it doesn't affect your minions. On the other hand, I'd be surprised if Vessel of Vinktar could apply shock to enemies.

If you have "Is the enemy Chilled?" and "Is the enemy Shocked?" checked under Configuration, you won't be seeing the full effect of Skitterbots. They're probably your only source of these ailments with Secrets of Suffering, and the ailment itself adds a lot of damage thanks to The Taming and Yoke of Suffering.