3.24 Blade Vortex Assassin - 2 PoB trees - which to choose?

Dear all!

I'm playing BV Assassin and I am reaching a point where I've to choose which direction to follow on my tree.

Here's number one (original)
https://poeplanner.com/AwAAAwAfAAYBAHQA4mHl3u8YgJIOcwn7Iy4MyJJNihmfTo8asF-YXzaMJz_FhGw_xbSf4wK5TFFNKn2Nb_W1m1TniyTzkv0kiCY5pKkUw3vjTTASMs_UN6BnxfxtWdOJfDAfkxTIDu7Zogsq8rVItWSaj_7YsKpuNyOmZP11vdjRtLyvP-1HUX9694Pe_5Um2va1BW0TPTaSNVJwdoe_jVt9cAaNDev62umsYhj1mZOPW0es4iJvhPYjyEpY5kVenjFSSa-KIoCKozrD4kd9SkgOqw_yXaqdMLdvW78WS1UFpAkUyVaCdhGQjGwT94xq7MJKygAACACOTM-o8FmihJkHsBducItKBwApdbxFou10hhytwoUpVZRUYmJr_edwsfXragRwBAAA______________________8AAAMAAAADAP____________88AAAAABQAH4sIAAAAAAAAAwMAAAAAAAAAAAA=?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0pCLCUXkNXdvX_OwST1RiCw0jo4WnJNMJXsjQONlxgqxvfvO5TKJMuY8c_aem_AYaFoT6ZvJhmKjto4AVj0QWtv8rI46nSzQVBTS2VZYzN6KmerHgOa2-pZLsEBbRk9nWvKSwekyC0EnNUOqZW7pcu

and the second which seems a little better to me, though it has a few flaws (which I'll explain later):
https://poeplanner.com/AwAAAwAfAAYBAHYA4mET2eXegJIOcwn7DMiSTZ51ihnV8J9OjxqwX5hfNownP8WExbQulQK5QlBMUU0qHgd9jW_1tZtU54sk85L9JIgmA16pFMN7u3DjTTLP1DcpJm1ZfDAfkxTI2aLytUi1m6dkmo_-2LCaE6puNyNAXPKyvdjRtBjsvK8_7UdRf3r3g97_lSba9rUFbRM9NpI1v41bfXAzcAbr-suHrGIVzxj1mZMd8o9bR6z2I8hKWOZFXp4xUkmvioqjOsOw4kgOqw_yXaqdMLdvW2vBlhG_FktVBaQJFJ1k9euCdlFJEZD6j4xsE_eMauzCSsoAAAgAjkzPqPBZooSZB7AXbnCLSgUAKXW8RaLtdIYcrcKFYmJr_edwsfUEAAD______________________wAAAwAAAAMA_____________zwAAAAAFAAfiwgAAAAAAAADAwAAAAAAAAAAAA==?fbclid=IwAR2BYxgRLzLBl0cMQeS9oQWaxIToqfB3OkOikW9AnKcPrf9sATumCa6j3Jk_aem_Afv5KXCkhap3

Generally tree no. 1 provides a little more health pool, 100% spell supp., 80% poison chance (100% with herald of agony). Tree no. 2 provides MUCH more ES, 95% spell supp., 65% poison chance (85% with herald), a lot more increased dmg, more dmg over time multiplier, -5%chaos res to monsters, more regen, more attributes (INT, STR to fullfill gems/gear req) . Additionally, to save some room on my gear I'd like to use purity of elements for res and total ailments immunity, hence my plan to change from tree no.1 to tree no.2.
The body armour I intend to use are:
Cherrubim's Maleficence / Dendrobate / Kintsugi.
Helm:
Devouring Diadem / Alpha's Cowl.

It'll be a budget char since I mostly play SSF so I'll probably buy 2-3 items AT MOST (if none).

Anybody cares to share their opinion?

I really don't see the point in going Assassin for poison bv over Pathfinder. Maybe u can reach the dot cap a little easier when u go crit, but ur defenses are paper thin.


Also ur second tree doesn't load for me.

Thanks for reply.

Here's link to my second tree (hope it'll work this time. P.S the link to the second tree was cut in my first post - I've already corrected that):

https://poeplanner.com/AwAAAwAfAAYBAHYA4mET2eXegJIOcwn7DMiSTZ51ihnV8J9OjxqwX5hfNownP8WExbQulQK5QlBMUU0qHgd9jW_1tZtU54sk85L9JIgmA16pFMN7u3DjTTLP1DcpJm1ZfDAfkxTI2aLytUi1m6dkmo_-2LCaE6puNyNAXPKyvdjRtBjsvK8_7UdRf3r3g97_lSba9rUFbRM9NpI1v41bfXAzcAbr-suHrGIVzxj1mZMd8o9bR6z2I8hKWOZFXp4xUkmvioqjOsOw4kgOqw_yXaqdMLdvW2vBlhG_FktVBaQJFJ1k9euCdlFJEZD6j4xsE_eMauzCSsoAAAgAjkzPqPBZooSZB7AXbnCLSgUAKXW8RaLtdIYcrcKFYmJr_edwsfUEAAD______________________wAAAwAAAAMA_____________zwAAAAAFAAfiwgAAAAAAAADAwAAAAAAAAAAAA==?fbclid=IwAR2BYxgRLzLBl0cMQeS9oQWaxIToqfB3OkOikW9AnKcPrf9sATumCa6j3Jk_aem_Afv5KXCkhap3


As for defenses, I plan on having more than 90% evasion, 100% spell supp., ailments immunity, capped res, determination for armor (if I manage to get Devouring Diadem), additionally Steelskin/Immortal Call on Automation, smoke cloud potion on "use when charges reach full" and probably Asenath's Gloves (for temporal chains). And don't forget about Elusive.
I can choose Kintsugi over other body armours if my defenses are that paper thin. How about Replica Mistwall shield for max spell block?

I also checked Pathfinder and don't really see anything good for my build - is it really thet better for poison stacking BV than Assassin?
What can I do to make my defenses better?

I guess it depends what content u intend to run with the char. BV is kinda like a melee character, so u're always in the face of the enemies getting hit constantly.

The problem is, that u have alot of evasion and avoid (with elusive) for sure, but once u get hit u're basically dead. Kintsugi is nice and all, but it's on a 4second cooldown aswell, so if u get hit twice during those 4 seconds it won't help. Even Determination won't help that much, because u don't scale armour in huge ways... so u'll likely not reach much more than 10-15k armour. (with flasks)

If u only run alc and go T16s tho, it should be fine.

Pathfinder is more of an endgame scaling build, with high priority on Flasks and physical to ele damage conversion on damage taken.

Back in Tota league I managed to clear all content with my poison BV PF, it was ridicilous... I didn't even need evasion at the end. But that was not an SSF char by any means and it used a lot of tattoos. Still the main build idea is strong and scales pretty well. I couldn't imagine running it only on evasion/avoid.

For additional defenses, it's actually pretty hard to get damage mitigation on the right side of the tree. I'm struggeling with the same problem on my Ele hit Trickster right now.
Not sure if u plan to use Determination and Grace, but if u did maybe going for iron reflexes makes sense. In Combination with Divine Flesh and alot of Chaos resistance u could get pretty tanky I guess. U'd still need a way to recover ur life tho, since leech isn't really an option for poison builds.

Another version would be the PF way of converting incoming damage with Lightning Coil, Helmet craft/implicit, Taste of Hate and maybe the Dawnbreaker shield from Exarch if u don't dual wield. That should also work well with Divine Flesh.

I'm sure there are other ways ppl can recommend, I'm by no means an expert on build crafting. Those are just some ideas for u to think about :)

PS: I dunno what I'm doing wrong, but both of ur links forward me to the same tree now.

PSS: If u wanna check my PF, it's called "SadaukarTrial". Maybe u can get some inspiration out of it.

Yeah, something is definitely wrong with those links (they look differently on edit, and change after I submit O_o)

Still, yes I plan on using Determination and Grace at the same time (other auras, purity of elements, malevolence, herald of agony) - that's why I need lots of reservation efficiency and Devouring Diadem (for Eldritch).

My main point is to make a rather hard to 1-shot kill char. Being hit 2 times in 4 seconds, with smoke cloud, steelskin or immortal call (maybe I'll switch to cast when dmg taken to mitigate that 4 seconds cooldown on Kintsugi), 22% Elusive, around 30% block chance, capped res, (I plan on ALMOST capping chaos res but It'll probably be around 50%...) + phys reduction from determination, would be bad luck... is it? To be honest I never played past T16 so I don't know what to expect xD

P.S I'm gonna check that PF of Yours, though if it's not SFF friendly I probably won't stick with it xD

P.S.S that Determination + Grace + Iron Reflexes looks interesting :D

I think the problem with Kintsugi is, that Spell hits will disable ur Kintsugi aswell. So u only have to get hit by 1 spell and then u're 4 seconds vulnerable to attacks. But like I said, it shouldn't be too bad for T16s.

For the PF, it's definitely doable as SSF, but not with the items I was using in the end of course XD
The main items u will need to grind/get with luck are Taste of Hate and Lightning Coil. Those are the main items u build around basically.

Also u're planning on using ALOT of 50% reservation auras :D I don't know if u can fit them all into ur build.

Well, You made me realize the problems with Kintsugi. Originally, my plan was: "Ok, so I'll have ALWAYS: 53% spell dmg reduction thanks to 100% spell suppression, and 35% phys dmg reduction thanks to Kintsugi". Now it seems problematic... sow how about a counter: Immortal call + cast when damage taken + increased duration (+ increased duration from Malevolence and passive tree = around 200% incr. duration in TOTAL - should be around 3,5 seconds).

As for my skill gem fitting:

Body Armour (Kintsugi/Dendrobate/Cherrubim's):
Vaal Blade Vortex - Deadly Ailments (awakened if possible) - Unbound Ailments (awakened if possible) - Efficacy (awakened if possible) - Void Manipulation (awakened if possible) - Unleash

Weapon (rare dagger with lots of crit chance and crit multipl, some chaos res, poison dmg/chance)
Plague Bearer - Increased AoE - Summon Stone Golem (with plans to maybe exchange Golem with Empower?)

Gloves (Asenath's):
Wither - Spell Totem Support - Multiple Totems - Faster Casting

Shield (Replica Mistwall):
Immortal Call - Increased Duration - CWDT or Automation (with all skill duration increases the Immortal Call should almost fill the gap of those 4 missing seconds :D)

Boots (Rare with life, movement speed, spell suppr (if 95% from tree) and chaos res):
Whirling Blades - Faster Attacks - Herald of Agony - Determination (or Flesh and Stone if not enough reservation efficiency)

Helmet (Alpha's Cowl or ideally Devouring Diadem):
Grace - Malevolence - Purity of Elements - Enlighten

From the tree I'll have 44% reservation efficiency + items (16% from Alpha or 25% from Diadem) + Enlighten for those 50% mana res skill gems.
Calculations:

Grace + Malevolence + Purity = 48% mana reserved (cuz I'll have at least 60% reservation efficiency from tree + items (Alpha's) and 8% from Enlighten = 68% in total)

Herald of Agony + Determination = 30% mana reserved (cuz at least 60% reservation efficiency from tree + items (Alpha's)).

That leaves me with 22% unreserved mana. I should have around 850 max mana so I'll have more than 180 left which is quite comfortable mana pool. If I manage to get Diadem, then I can fit in even more auras, maybe I'll exchange Stone Golem with Vitality. With Diadem I could even probably exchange Enlighten with Flesh and Stone and thanks to Eldritch I'll be using ES instead of mana (cuz BV with all support gems is using around 70 mana).

As for amulet, rings and belt:

- at least one le heup of all (to fill missing resistances and attributes, + dmg always helpful :P)
- rare ring with life and chaos res
- rare amulet with life and chaos res
- rare belt with life, flasks gain etc.

Then I'll have to think about cheap anointments for my build.

The Immortal Call setup is a good idea I think and it should work just fine with all the increased duration on ur tree.

The Auras on the other hand don't add up, at all. I don't know exactly how u calculated them, but mana reservation efficiency has diminishing returns.

Right now with ur tree #1, devouring diadem and enlighten 3 in ur grace/male/purity setup u're at -37% unreserved mana according to PoB.

Without Determination and Herald of Agony u'll reach 18% unreserved mana.

The gems and links are fine I think, even tho the Stone Golem might be dead 95% of the time, so it's pretty useless.
I personally hate playing with wither totems, but I'm not sure how u'd get wither on hit right on top of my head.

For items, I think Mistwall seems like a nice extra layer of defense, but u'll obviously lose alot of damage with not going dual wield. Note that the poison chance on daggers doesn't count for spells, but with Herald of Agony u should be at 100% anyway.

A very good damage ring for poison bv is Ming's Heart. I'd use that over le heup any day and try to get attributes and resistances elsewhere.
I don't particularly like Asenath's either, but I guess u need it for clearing since u don't have poison prolif.

I think if u can get at least 5k life with those defenses it should be enough to comfortably farm t16s. U just have to figure out the mana issues and I think u'll either have to cut determination or malevolence. I had the same issue at some point, so I ran Grace during mapping and switched to Malevolence for bossing, until I didn't need Grace for mapping anymore.

I wonder if the traveling to the center of the tree is actually worth it. Since u're already getting up to +100% increased poison duration, the extra 25% isn't that impactful. Maybe some Cluster Jewel setup is more effective.

I just changed it up a bit, there's also alot more options on the bottom side of the tree if u want to get some more block chance, iron reflexes, guard skill CDR ect. That tree has 171% life, so u can cut back on that aswell if u want to. It's only at 90% spell suppression, but u can get the missing 10% from a flask or boots. U might want to think about stun immunity aswell, although maybe just running Brine King can be enough.

https://poeplanner.com/AwAAAwAfAAYBAHUAYCHiYWQs7xiAkg5zCfsjLgzIkk2KGXUUn06PGnbpNozdOaSqxYRsP8W0LQWf43MMfY1v9bWbVOeLJPOS_SSIJlN66iIwErr-1DegZ8X804l8MB-TFMgO7tmiCypItQEyZJrYsKBANyOmZBmy_XXRtJsKvK8_7UdRf3r3g97_lSba9rUF1uhtE7HkUnB2h3rPv41wBo0NdX1-0-v62umsYq9bGPWZk49bhwPveuthb4T2I1jmb9PxdEVeUkkigIqjOsN9SkgOqw_yXaqdMLdvW9sYt0a_FktVE14JFMlWgnaMbBP37XSMauzCAAAIAI5Mz6jwWaKEmQewF25wi0oGAKLtdIYcrcKFKVWUVOdwsfXragRw275r_QQAAP______________________AAADAAAAAwD_____________PAAAAAAUAB-LCAAAAAAAAAMDAAAAAAAAAAAA

So again I'm reaching a wall called: "Game mechanics that You don't know". Man that encourages me so much...

But to the point:

1. Immortal Call setup with CWDT, not automation?
2. Auras - I was wrong all the time. I thought 50% mana res efficiency, means auras reserve 50% less mana. Ok, so I'll have to resign from some auras. I've found some aura and mana res. efficiency calculators and it seems like that:

Alpha's Cowl setup:
- Grace + Purity of Elements + Herald of Agony + Flesh and Stone
If I manage to cap my resistances without Purity of Elements, then I can replace it with Determination. But then I'll need some aliments resistance so I'll need to take Lethe Shade passive and Brine King for Stun/Freeze defence.

Devouring Diadem Setup:
- Grace + Purity of Elements + Herald of Agony + Flesh and Stone + Defiance Banner.
Here also I can replace Purity of Elements with Determination.
At this point, Malevolence seems like a waste of 50% mana res so, yeah maybe only during boss fights instead of Grace.
My main problem is, I never reached end-game content past T16 so I totally don't know what to expect and what to focus on...

3. Poison chance on daggers. Ok, so how I determine whether a weapon stat applies to my skill? Does increased poison dmg from dagger applies to poison damage from my BV? How about life gain on hit from Claws (not life leeech - just asking about the flat life gain on enemy hit)?
And finally - which stats should I look for, on my weapon, to contribute to my BV build? Maybe it's best to switch to Obliteration, since BV is a spell? (does %incr spell dmg also apply to my poison stacks?)

4. Ming's Heart chaos conversion - my physical DMG sucks. So basically how does that phys to chaos conversion work? Do I get that chaos dmg on hit per blade on BV or does that chaos dmg apply to poison dmg itself? If not then is that 50-100 flat chaos dmg from Ming (I presume I'll have that much) really that meaningful? I've taken Chaos Mastery "40% of physical damage converted to chaos damage" but can You explain to me how it actually works? I mean I have deadly ailments so my hits would deal 80% less dmg...

So Immortal Call on CWDT or Automation should both work. I'd say CWDT is more reliable to prevent one shots, where as automation gives more uptime, but maybe it's on cooldown when u really need it. I don't know what's better, gotta test it out.

For the Auras, those setups are solid I think. Like I said Determination isn't worth unless u're investing more into armour imho.

for #3, the poison chance is local, meaning it only applies to hit with the dagger, therefore doesn't apply to spells. The poison damage or duration on the other hand should be global. It's actually not that easy to determine what stat is local and what's global. I think u can look it up on poedb.tw, for example at https://poedb.tw/us/Daggers#ModifiersCalc u can click on the poison chance suffix and behind each tier is an information mouseover. If u hover over it, u can see it says "local poison on hit %". That means it doesn't apply to anything but direct hits with the weapon. The poison damage on the other hand is called base poison damage %.
I'm sure there is a better way to determine local stats on poedb, I just don't know where.
(also life gain on hit from claws is local aswell)

For the second part of ur question, the best way to scale bv is with +X to skill gem levels. That will increase ur base physical damage of the gem by roughly 10% per level (up until gem lvl 30, less afterwards). After that Damage over Time multiplier, increased Damage over Time, increased physical or increased chaos damage are all good stats. U have to know, that u don't need to deal chaos damage for poison. Pure physical damage can poison aswell, which is why ur conversion mastery doesn't do much, if anything, for ur build.
The base physical damage will be converted to chaos damage over time (poison) anyway, so u're scaling off both sources.
(spell damage only increases the "hit"-part of BV, but it doesn't increase poison damage - so it's pretty useless)
-> a good and cheap weapon to start out with is Cold Iron Point, which just has +3 to physical spell gems. If u're lucky u can get a corrupted one with damage over time implicit aswell.

That leads to ur 4th point, Ming's Heart. The reason it's so good, is because it has up to 72% physical damage as extra chaos damage. (with catalyst)
Since all ur base damage is physical, u're getting 72% of ur base damage as chaos damage, which is basically a 72% damage increase. (diminished if u already have more of the same stat from somewhere else)
The phys as extra chaos is also completely different from "converted to chaos", since conversion doesn't add anything. It just changes the type of damage.

as example: Blade Vortex on lvl 20 has base physical damage of 140 to 211. That's the number which ur poisons scale off. It's for a single blade, so it get's multiplied by the amount of blades ect.
Ming's Heart now adds 100-152 chaos damage to that baseline damage, so u're at 240-363 instead, which will be multiplied by blades and everything else.

Damage conversion on the other hand, would just change a percentage of that physical damage to chaos. Let's say 40%, so now we're looking at 84-126 physical and 56-85 chaos damage.


Damage over time and especially poison isn't the easiest mechanic to unterstand in poe. I'd always advise the usage of Path of Building if u're trying a build that u're not familiar with.
I'm playing for a long time and even with PoB I did alot of mistakes when I first started my poison bv character... I couldn't imagine it without.

I hope the wall of text is understandable, I'm kinda tired rn :D