[PoE2] For the record: we're definitely going to need smart(er) loot generation

I feel like I shouldn't have to point this out, but I'm not taking any chances.

Jonathan's on the record saying that GGG don't like how in PoE1, you just need to get one good base item which you can scour and recraft infinitely. I agree with this, chaos spamming is not fun.

But with the way mod rolling works, i.e. fully random mods of fully random tiers independent of item level, we need this ability to beat the odds of getting a good roll before the heat death of the universe.

Today I spent ~200 rerolls on an ilvl 100 ring. Not a single one of the rolls was anything remotely good, not just for my build, but for any build. Just an endless stream of mostly 4 low-mid tier rolls with zero synergy between them.

Now imagine if I had to get a new ring for every attempt. >_<



If we want to make base items matter more in PoE2, I'm here for that. But if we want to pivot from quantity to quality, then we can't have high ilvl items with mostly garbage rolls on them 99% of the time.

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suszterpatt wrote:

I feel like I shouldn't have to point this out, but I'm not taking any chances.

Jonathan's on the record saying that GGG don't like how in PoE1, you just need to get one good base item which you can scour and recraft infinitely. I agree with this, chaos spamming is not fun.

But with the way mod rolling works, i.e. fully random mods of fully random tiers independent of item level, we need this ability to beat the odds of getting a good roll before the heat death of the universe.

Today I spent ~200 rerolls on an ilvl 100 ring. Not a single one of the rolls was anything remotely good, not just for my build, but for any build. Just an endless stream of mostly 4 low-mid tier rolls with zero synergy between them.

Now imagine if I had to get a new ring for every attempt. >_<



If we want to make base items matter more in PoE2, I'm here for that. But if we want to pivot from quantity to quality, then we can't have high ilvl items with mostly garbage rolls on them 99% of the time.

I think maybe he missed the glaring implication that rerolling something infinitely means you are having to reroll something inifinitely. Why would a player be rerolling something over and over again? What can it possibly mean?

Guys missing the point that Item level only gates certain stats to appear on items. GGG just never implemented item level 100 exclusive mods and stopped at 86.

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morganbritches wrote:

I think maybe he missed the glaring implication that rerolling something infinitely means you are having to reroll something inifinitely. Why would a player be rerolling something over and over again? What can it possibly mean?

It means that player generally has no goals or specific items/item stats in mind as well as very little experience with crafting items and is just using currency for the sake of using it.

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suszterpatt wrote:

If we want to make base items matter more in PoE2, I'm here for that. But if we want to pivot from quantity to quality, then we can't have high ilvl items with mostly garbage rolls on them 99% of the time.

Did you miss the part where currency items have different effects in PoE2 to change crafting fundamentally?

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ArtCrusade wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

If we want to make base items matter more in PoE2, I'm here for that. But if we want to pivot from quantity to quality, then we can't have high ilvl items with mostly garbage rolls on them 99% of the time.

Did you miss the part where currency items have different effects in PoE2 to change crafting fundamentally?

No, but it doesn't change my point either.

Take the new chaos orb for example. The way they're pitching it is, when you find an item with mostly good mods, you can use a chaos orb to hopefully replace one of the bad mods with a better one.

Under the current loot generation rules, there's two problems with this concept.

1. The odds of finding an item with even 3-4 good mods all at once is miniscule. Even if we put the odds of getting a single good mod at a very charitable 10%, getting 3-4 of them is a 1:1000 to 1:10,000 chance. There's a reason nobody stops to pick up rares.

2. Even if you somehow found one, AND the chaos orb removed one of the bad mods: well, you still only have that 10% (or whatever) chance that the new mod will actually be good, and you won't have to repeat the process (and likely remove one of the good mods) again. When was the last time you annul'd and exalted an item without using metacrafting options?


So without changing the loot generation rules, the scenario that GGG are pitching will practically never occur, much less yield results.

There aren't many items that youre going to chaos spam and get anything worthwhile, i usually only do this on cluster jewels or in ssf.

Potential from last epoch is trash. Who wants to buy/farm a perfect fracture, reroll it 4x and its garbage.

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

There aren't many items that youre going to chaos spam and get anything worthwhile, i usually only do this on cluster jewels or in ssf.

Potential from last epoch is trash. Who wants to buy/farm a perfect fracture, reroll it 4x and its garbage.

Just farm the base 5x until you get perfect results! /s

@suzterpatt: chaos spamming is only worth it if
a) you have a base with a good fracture
b) there's no better outcome via Essences
c) you don't care about a specific mod combination (too much)

Anyone could tell you that chaos spamming some random ilvl 100 ring is not gonna yield any great results. You can check the possible mods + the weights here: link to poe.db

You can also check craftofexile since it allows you to simulate various crafting methods before you waste your currency

Spending 200c on a ring going full casino mode (since I wouldn't even call that "crafting") just isn't the play, especially considering you play trade and could have just bought a ring anyway. And if you had cared about specific mods you would have acquired a fractured crafting base first anyway..

people are focusing too much on the crafting faux pas in the OP...and not enough on the actual GOOD point being made.

Loot generation in PoE is....miserable. I don't think there can be any argument about that. It is the reason loot filters exist, it is the reason that the "expert" players are hiding 90+% of ALL drops. In an actual "good" loot system...this should not be necessary, or at least not to this degree.

Smart(er) loot would accomplish a lot for the game. Have ilvl 83 bases ONLY roll mods from t5/t4 up, ilvl 86 bases only roll mods from t3 up, ilvl 100 roll t2 and up, etc. GGG could then still go in and tweak the weight of the t1s lower (oof) if they want to, but the overall FEEL of the loot drop would be better.

The different crafting methods, changes in orbs, "acquiring a proper base", etc. is rather meaningless in this argument. Or at least VERY loosely, tangentially related but not getting at the true problem outlined in the OP.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

There aren't many items that youre going to chaos spam and get anything worthwhile, i usually only do this on cluster jewels or in ssf.

Potential from last epoch is trash. Who wants to buy/farm a perfect fracture, reroll it 4x and its garbage.

Just farm the base 5x until you get perfect results! /s

@suzterpatt: chaos spamming is only worth it if
a) you have a base with a good fracture
b) there's no better outcome via Essences
c) you don't care about a specific mod combination (too much)

Anyone could tell you that chaos spamming some random ilvl 100 ring is not gonna yield any great results. You can check the possible mods + the weights here: link to poe.db

You can also check craftofexile since it allows you to simulate various crafting methods before you waste your currency

Spending 200c on a ring going full casino mode (since I wouldn't even call that "crafting") just isn't the play, especially considering you play trade and could have just bought a ring anyway. And if you had cared about specific mods you would have acquired a fractured crafting base first anyway..

I know.

That's my whole point.

The completely random generation of mods is bad, even when you can spam it. Imagine how much worse it would be if you couldn't even spam it, which is where PoE2 is going. Thus, PoE2 cannot have completely random generation of item mods.