Keystones vs Notable

While i understand most keystones are meant to be a +1/-1 system, not all of them are, and this leads me to thinking that some of the notables really need to be keystones.

Adders Touch is the biggest one because of how interesting it can be. Almost nobody even knows that this thing exist, because it's hidden away in an obscure corner of the skill tree.

Piercing Shots also seems like it should be a keystone.

I would think more along the lines of Static Blows and Elemental Adaptation in terms of nomination for keystone status.

I agree that there are some 'notable passives' which are much better than others.

But except for the '20% extra accuracy' or '10% physical damage with a particular weapon type on tuesdays' etc... ones, most of them are pretty amazing. There are lots and lots of really good ones, and it pays to check them all out once you've played a bit. Imagine making a summoner build and not knowing about 'Additional Spectre'!

It took me a while of playing a staff templar before I found out there was a "10% additional block chance with staves" node! There are lots of amazingly powerful weapon-specific nodes which can really change your build around. As well as the ones already mentioned, there are:
the 'raker' claw cluster, Serpent Stance, Fusillade/ElderPower/WandFireDamage/etc..., Deft Blade, plus others too.

Also worth knowing about are the shadow nodes which add chance to give ele statuses on hit.

Also check out the Duelist area if you want some crazy Notables you might not know about. Shield Mastery and Mana Flows in particular are much more powerful than other similar notables elsewhere.

Discipline and training is also completely mad, as is 'Body And Soul' (which gives 20% extra ES, compared with Nullification which only gives 10%. Even Arcane Focus only gives 18%, and it doesn't do anything else!!)

"Avoid Cast Interruption" would also be really useful to know about if it was better.

There are also some amazing node clusters that aren't even notables, but are definitely worth knowing about (eg: the trap and totem clusters, reduced mana reservation clusters, buff/skill effect duration clusters, etc...)!


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(Also agreed that piercing shots is a good keystone candidate, since it actually does have a down side!)

Kind of wish GGG would have stuck to the concept of keystones having a downside (a downside to that node, not "the nodes around this aren't great") so this problem of distinguishing them from notables wouldn't have come up. At the moment the distinction seems a bit too arbitrary.

Hex Mastery, Conduit, Arrow Dodging and Iron Grip all have no down sides.
And hex mastery isn't even build-specific. Everyone who was going past it anyway would pick up that skill.

Well it can be a huge component in a build, it just won't be in most of the cases.
See frost wall ranger.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

A ranged character who takes Iron Grip builds very differently to one which doesn't.

A character who takes piercing shots doesn't play, or build significantly differently to one which doesn't - just some of their shots pierce. That's why that fundamentally isn't a keystone.

Both of those sentences are untrue. Here's an easy way to tell which keystone is a significant build changer':

Go up to a random bow character and ask "If you could get the iron grip passive for free, would you?" All of them would of course say "yes". Then ask "Would you want to change your build around as a result?" - almost all of them would say "no".*

Then ask them, "If you could get the piercing shots passive for free, would you?"
Most of them would say 'no'. Why? Because they would have to change their build around.

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*(If you have iron grip, the +30 str nodes give "6% increased physical projectile attack dmg." That's not worth a skill point to most people unless they need the str anyway.)

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Vipermagi wrote:

The distinction lies more in the effect it has on gameplay than whether it has a large downside or not. Keystones noticably change what you look for on gear and in the tree. Vaal Pact makes Regen useless, and Leech is that much more important. ResTech obviates Crit and Accuracy. Acrobatics, CI, Eldritch Battery, Iron Reflexes and Unwavering Stance all make one or two defenses more useful than the other(s), or change its function altogether.

This is correct. Keystones are not meant to specifically follow a "+1/-1" formula or to all have downsides. Keystones are keystones because they significantly change the way you play your character, or build you passives. It's not about having a downside, or how good they are, it's about impact on how you play, or on how you build. Some of the very first keystones in design had no 'drawbacks'

An ES character who takes CI plays very differently than one who doesn't. A ranged character who takes Iron Grip builds very differently to one which doesn't.

A character who takes piercing shots doesn't play, or build significantly differently to one which doesn't - just some of their shots pierce. That's why that fundamentally isn't a keystone.

So then the keystone part of Acrobatics is entirely in the drawback, right?