Bubbling vs Seething flask mod

Bubbling flask + Alchemist cluster is more effective than Seething.
Bubbling mod effectiveness scaling is counter-intuitive.

Please buff Seething mod or rework Bubbling mod.

Huh, I've never actually thought about this before. Double-checking the math:

2400 baseline recovery

+20% quality = 2880


Hang on, is flask effect additive to the baseline or multiplicative with quality?

Gonna do math for each.

Multiplicative first:

2880 * 1.2 6 =3628.8 which is rounded down to 3628.

Seething: .34 x 3628 = 1233.52, or 1233. Doesn't sync up to the 1481 shown.

If flask effect is additive then:
2400 * 1.46 = 3504. 3504 * .34 = 1191.36.

Applying quality after Seething also gives those numbers.


Either there are other modifiers not being shown and/or the way that program is doing its flask math is wrong. No amount of either additive or multiplicative mods should change the relationship between Seething and Bubbling.

Interesting. Gonna have to start using bubbling flasks now instead.

TL:DR (which is also at the very bottom):
It is not possible under any current circumstances for a Bubbling Divine Flask to have more instantaneous healing than a Seething Divine Flask assuming the same modifiers acting on both of them such as quality and/or the Alchemist wheel.

A Seething flask will always instantly heal 34% while the Bubbling will always instantly heal 25%. The fact that Path of Building (I'm assuming it's PoB anyway since that looks to be the same interface and style) says otherwise means Path of Building is not handling the math correctly and needs to be fixed.

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kompaniet wrote:

Interesting. Gonna have to start using bubbling flasks now instead.

Don't bother. The math I did shows that if we're comparing the mods in the same circumstances (both with the Alchemist wheel) then Seething always gives more instantaneous health than Bubbling since that's simply how it's set up.

SomethingWonderful, what are the exact flask mods you've got for both the Bubbling and Seething? No amount of increased flask effect that affects both of them can ever make Bubbling give more instantaneous health than Seething because the instantaneous amount for Bubbling is 50%*50%= 25%, while the amount for Seething is 100%-66%= 34%.

The fact that the Alchemist wheel's 26% Increased Flask Effect is present on both but the numbers don't line up says Path of Building's math is wrong or there's another modifier being applied.


If there are no other modifiers then, as best I can tell, for the Seething numbers it's doing the calculations for flask quality twice. 2880 * .34 = 979.2, rounded down to just 979. Adding 26% on top of that would give 1233. But if we look at your final number of 1481 we find 1481/1233 = 1.2003 which is equivalent to the 20% being multiplied in again.

The Bubbling numbers with only flask quality and 26% flask effectiveness should be the following, assuming effectiveness is multiplicative with quality:

50% of 2880 is 1440. 50% of 1440 is 720. Multiply 26% effectiveness on that to get 907 instant life gained with another 907 being applied over the next 3 seconds, assuming there's no flask rate modifiers.
Hang on, the numbers should be the same for both the instant recovery and the over time recovery, so it's very obviously a Path of Building bug at this point.

Looking on the tree, I see the Juggernaut and Herbalism nodes each have 20% increased life recovered from flasks, so one of those might account for the discrepancy with Seething. But the math on Bubbling doesn't add or multiply up at all.

According to the wiki here, flask quality is multiplicative with other modifiers to flasks, but it's looking like those other modifiers are additive with each other because that's usually how GGG does things.

Okay, final math on what the Seething and Bubbling flasks should show:

Seething Divine Flask:

Baseline 2400 life recovered
Multiply by 1.2 for quality to become 2880
Increased by 26% due to Alchemist nodes and another 20% due to Herbalism to come to a grand total of 4204.8.
Multiply that by 100-66%=34% to get 1429.632, which just gets taken down to 1429.

1429 life recovery is the final value for this Seething Divine Flask.

If flask effectiveness and Herbalism were multiplicative with each other then that 2880 is multiplied by 1.2 then 1.26 to become 4354.56 and multiply that by .34 to get 1480.5504 which gets rounded down to 1480, so that explains where PoB is getting its numbers and I wouldn't blame the author for guessing that's how the mechanic works.


Bubbling Divine Flask:

Baseline 2400 life recovered
Multiply by 1.2 for quality to become 2880
Increased by 26% due to Alchemist nodes and another 20% due to Herbalism to come to a grand total of 4204.8.

Multiply by 50% to get 2102.4. 50% of that (1050.2) is applied instantly while the rest (again, 1050.2) is applied over the next 7 / 2.35 = 2.9787 seconds which is rounded up for display purposes to 3 seconds. Herbalism's 20% increased recovery rate... Could either multiply with the flask's new base time or add on to the flask mod. If it adds on then 7 / 2.55 = 2.745. If it multiplies then 2.9787 / 1.2 = 2.482. I'm not seeing how PoB is doing its math on the final recovery time but that's not the main issue here.

1050.2 is the final instantaneous heal value for this Bubbling Divine Flask. Note how 1429 / 1050 = 1.36, and if we just compare the magic flasks without quality then a Seething Divine Flask restores 816 health instantly while a Bubbling Divine Flask restores 600 health instantly. 816 / 600 = 1.36. In fact, we can simplify this down even further: 34/25 = 1.36.

The fact that the ratio is the same for a flask with no quality or passive tree modifiers is not a coincidence. That's just a property of multiplication. If you scale up 100 and 200 both by 50%, you get 150 and 300 which is still a ratio of 1 to 2.


TL:DR:
It is not possible under any current circumstances for a Bubbling Divine Flask to have more instantaneous healing than a Seething Divine Flask assuming the same modifiers acting on both of them such as quality and/or the Alchemist wheel.

A Seething flask will always instantly heal 34% while the Bubbling will always instantly heal 25%. The fact that Path of Building (I'm assuming it's PoB anyway since that looks to be the same interface and style) says otherwise means Path of Building is not handling the math correctly and needs to be fixed.

So I'll find the thread for it and link back here showing there's a problem.

Thx Jackalope_Gaming. It looked to good to be true.

Your premise is wrong. Tripple check your math.
Here are some cues:
- Flask Effect != Life Recovery, they are multiplicative.
- Flask Duration increases the total amount recovered. But does not apply to instant recovery
- Flask Effect increases the Recovery affix.

PoB is not wrong. This has been known for at least 1-2 years. Has been field tested. Look it up.

Seething's total 1481 Life recovered. 979 (@20% quality) * 1,2 (herb)* 1,26 (alchemist)

Bubbling's: 1655 + 575 / 2.73s

Here is the basic calc for bubbling with rough numbers:
- 1440 hp after 20% *1,2 herbalist, *1,26 Master Alchemist = 2177
- 10% Duration modifier at 76% instant recovery results in ~ 2177*1,024 = 2230
2230 * 0,76 / 1,024 (because duration doesn't apply to instant recovery = 1655 for instant heal. Exactly (+-1) what PoB shows me and what has been tested.

PS: The wording might not be exact and quite wrong, as you can see the math is rather unintuitive and all in all it is quite a janky coding. Especially the interaction of Flask effect with "Recovery", "Amount Recovered", and "Recovers".

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Bananaplasm wrote:

Has been field tested.

this is the most important part. Whatever is actually happening in game trumps all else.

that said, a quick YouTube search for "path of exile bubbling heals more than seething" yielded nothing other than a 17 minute ZiggyD snoozefest so I'd say the onus of proof is on you to provide links to the field test rather than "look it up."

A video from you showing the effects of both flasks while severely injured might go a long way in proving your case.

"

Bananaplasm wrote:

Your premise is wrong. Tripple check your math.
Here are some cues:
- Flask Effect != Life Recovery, they are multiplicative.
- Flask Duration increases the total amount recovered. But does not apply to instant recovery
- Flask Effect increases the Recovery affix.

PoB is not wrong. This has been known for at least 1-2 years. Has been field tested. Look it up.

Seething's total 1481 Life recovered. 979 (@20% quality) * 1,2 (herb)* 1,26 (alchemist)

Bubbling's: 1655 + 575 / 2.73s

Here is the basic calc for bubbling with rough numbers:
- 1440 hp after 20% *1,2 herbalist, *1,26 Master Alchemist = 2177
- 10% Duration modifier at 76% instant recovery results in ~ 2177*1,024 = 2230
2230 * 0,76 / 1,024 (because duration doesn't apply to instant recovery = 1655 for instant heal. Exactly (+-1) what PoB shows me and what has been tested.

PS: The wording might not be exact and quite wrong, as you can see the math is rather unintuitive and all in all it is quite a janky coding. Especially the interaction of Flask effect with "Recovery", "Amount Recovered", and "Recovers".

It's a little difficult to check one's math when the assumptions one is making about the actual mechanics are wrong.

And yes, I did make assumptions since they seemed to be most in line with GGG's practices. Then again, GGG doing things in some weird arcane way is also among their practices so I'm not surprised that flasks are a bit messed up.

But in looking more thoroughly, I found https://tldrexile.com/pathofexile.com/forum/index.php?var1=view-thread&var2=1664139 which does at least give some in game numbers as opposed to assuming PoB is fully accurate.

I'll have to do some testing of my own on this, and I'll report back with pictures and figure out the math and maybe even write an in-depth guide once I nail down the exact mechanics.

"

adghar wrote:

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Bananaplasm wrote:

Has been field tested.

this is the most important part. Whatever is actually happening in game trumps all else.

that said, a quick YouTube search for "path of exile bubbling heals more than seething" yielded nothing other than a 17 minute ZiggyD snoozefest so I'd say the onus of proof is on you to provide links to the field test rather than "look it up."

There were timestamps for the various mechanics but Ziggy didn't go into any detail about this particular Seething vs Bubbling claim. All he does is explain what each one does under normal circumstances. I doubt he knows about the oddities shown in this thread at all, and even if he did he's not exactly known for his ability to explain the math behind such stuff.