Acrobatics

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glovedust wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

A much better keystone would be:
Whenever you evade or block an attack, you gain an endurance charge.
Whenever you take damage, you lose all endurance charges.

No offense, but that's even worse than acrobatics.

None taken. Knew it was crap when I posted it. Just saying Acro is garbage and needs elimination.

BTW stacking evasion on top of your evasion just to get one-shotted by the exact same stuff isn't very good.

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glovedust wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

A much better keystone would be:
Whenever you evade or block an attack, you gain an endurance charge.
Whenever you take damage, you lose all endurance charges.

No offense, but that's even worse than acrobatics. Sure, it's annoying to accumulate endurance charges, but it's not hard. That keystone would make it a nightmare, it would be way easier just to use enduring cry. Now if there were a keystone that reduced the next incoming hit to (.95^n) where n is the number of previously dodged attacks... that might be useful.




The role of acrobatics is to create a very niche tank build, really only good lategame. If your build normally would have gotten zero energy shield and zero armor anyways, acrobatics increases effective hitpoints by 20% (30% vs physical). That's pretty fucking strong. The only problem is you need a hitpoint pool of about 6000 to reliably mitigate damage.

Agreed, and the issue with 6000 hp is, well getting 6000 hp without being a marauder. The niche is too small, and possibly not even viable. Also there is little pure evasion nodes, they are always attached to energy shield or armor. Meaning you remove 1/2 of the effectiveness of what those nodes could have been.

You even remove what little energy shield the character might have from +INT. While miniscule, it is still removing some survivability. Also it is hard to claim that it increases your hitpoints by 20/30% since AoEs and Ground cast abilities "may" ignore the dodge. Also certain chaos projectiles seem to ignore evasion and acrobatics as well.

I will also have to disagree with the damage reduction per dodge, as avoidance is intended to carry risk of not having mitigation. With my original idea, mitigation is reduced, as avoidance is increased, which I believe stays within the heart of the original concept.


Again though, I am nearly certain that the only reason it removes energy shield and armor is from Chaos Innoculation and Iron Reflexes. Acrobatics was most definitely designed as 30% dodge. Then someone saw the potential with the Chaos Innoculation(back when it gave +50% energy shield), and saw Iron Reflexes having a 30% avoidance on top of godly armor. Therefor for balance sakes they removed the exploit of those 2 keystones by remove eshield and armor. These drawbacks arent fully necessary if you use my idea, since CI was nerfed(and usually has low evasion), and Iron Reflexes could never achieve an evade, the overpowered combining of these keystones will not exist.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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glovedust wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

A much better keystone would be:
Whenever you evade or block an attack, you gain an endurance charge.
Whenever you take damage, you lose all endurance charges.

No offense, but that's even worse than acrobatics.

BTW stacking evasion on top of your evasion just to get one-shotted by the exact same stuff isn't very good.

Which is why you can simply remove this issue by reducing the armor and energy shield penalty. Which would no longer be needed since the additional avoidance could only be used if you were already an evasion build.

In its current form you do not have to have evasion to receive the bonuses. This made it too powerful for other builds like CI and Iron Reflexes, which are nearby. Whats the 1 way you can make it junk to those other keystones? Remove armor and Energy shield, the 1 thing the other keystones give as a bonus.(it was simply a preventative measure to make these combinations not so powerful with every build)

With my idea, it can still be utilized exactly how it is(pure avoidance, with no energy shield or armor) however, you get 5 more points to sink into some bonus life if you wish, or you could use the hybrid gear of armor/evasion and energy shield/evasion. It would also allow you to use the Evasion/Armor nodes, or the Evasion/energy shield nodes without sacrificing the other half of the bonus.

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trenan wrote:

Major complaints:
1) Its basically just extra evasion, on a different roll

More or less agreed, at least for the basic effect. It may as well just give extra Evasion, using the normal Evasion mechanics. (It is actually slightly better than Evasion, as even 'cannot miss' attacks can be Dodged, but still...)

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2) 1 shots still exist due to no armor, no EShield(and to the whole evasion mechanic allowing hits in via smoothing)

This is a much bigger problem to do with monster damage vs how easy it is to avoid getting hit (especially with ranged characters). The smoothing effect of Evasion is irrelevant (if anything the situation would be worse if Evasion was rolled randomly each time, because you'd often get hit twice or more in a row). Turning everything into an Armour-like or Endurance-like mechanic is not the solution.

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3) Too much investment for so much loss of stats(no armor, no eShield)

Disagree - you choose to give up the ability to do something in return for some other advantage. In that respect, it's no different to taking Unwavering Stance or Chaos Inoculation. Losing ES is irrelevant for most life-based characters (unless you're taking Eldritch Battery, but that's another gimmicky strategy). The only reason Armour matters is the aforementioned 1-shot problem, plus the fact that there is no real substitute for Granite flasks at the moment (e.g. there is no flask that gives dodging or flat Evasion).

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4) Gimmicky keystone which is basically like +20% evasion

All the keystones are gimmicky, that's just the nature of keystones. I don't think their effects should be any more complicated than they need to be, and your suggestion is definitely more complicated than the current setup.

I should note that "complaints" were taken from other threads, which had decent justification behind it.

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More or less agreed, at least for the basic effect. It may as well just give extra Evasion, using the normal Evasion mechanics. (It is actually slightly better than Evasion, as even 'cannot miss' attacks can be Dodged, but still...)

It is much better that it is on a seperate roll, in fact it is the only reason it is currently useable at all. I would like it to stay that way

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This is a much bigger problem to do with monster damage vs how easy it is to avoid getting hit (especially with ranged characters). The smoothing effect of Evasion is irrelevant (if anything the situation would be worse if Evasion was rolled randomly each time, because you'd often get hit twice or more in a row). Turning everything into an Armour-like or Endurance-like mechanic is not the solution.

The smoothing means you will always get hit. If something is killing you in 1 hit, who cares if they hit you twice? you are already dead. The smoothing has advantages and disadvantages, but in the end it means you will always get hit. The chance of killing a boss and avoiding every attack by luck will not exist, you will get hit, and you will die. Getting hit twice in a row is no big deal, as most things that hit that hard, do not attack very fast, allowing time to run away and heal up, or leech it back.(which is basically the whole idea behind avoidance)

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Disagree - you choose to give up the ability to do something in return for some other advantage. In that respect, it's no different to taking Unwavering Stance or Chaos Inoculation. Losing ES is irrelevant for most life-based characters (unless you're taking Eldritch Battery, but that's another gimmicky strategy). The only reason Armour matters is the aforementioned 1-shot problem, plus the fact that there is no real substitute for Granite flasks at the moment (e.g. there is no flask that gives dodging or flat Evasion).

It is very different than taking unwavering stance and chaos innoculation, or any other keystone. Why? because it removes 2, count them 2, surviveability stats. Nothing else has such a severe punishment(and they are only 1 point, acrobatics area is 6). It also removes every piece of equipment in the game which is not evasion only(unless you enjoy throwing stats away). Chaos innoculation can achieve greater values than health characters thanks to 1000 ES chest pieces, if they wanted to they could even wear plate boots with +energy shield rolls on them, health is a secondary armor stat, making it easier to avoid with CI, since energy shield and armor are primary stats, it makes it much harder to find the perfect stat setup.

Unwavering stance still allows you to wear health, armor and energy shield, hell you could still even wear evasion gear if you took Iron Reflexes, the negative impact is so tiny compared to acrobatics. If acrobatics wanted to be on par with other negative side effects of keystones it would be some thing like.... "Removes All Armor" or "Removes all Energy Shield" or "Converts all Armor into Evasion" or "Converts all Energy Shield to Evasion" or "Converts all Armor and Energy Shield to evasion". It could never simply remove both, for just 20% dodge.

The benefit to sacrifice ratio is way different compared to others.

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All the keystones are gimmicky, that's just the nature of keystones. I don't think their effects should be any more complicated than they need to be, and your suggestion is definitely more complicated than the current setup.

Who says it should or shouldn't be complicated? How is my suggestion complicated at all? If you have evasion gear, you get a bonus for evading. It would also open up for use in different builds and gear choices. If you know a boss is gonna 1 shot you because they have some janky unavoidable abilitiy. You could change gear to tailor that fight, which is already something the Devs stated they want.