A Brief history of Claws (Their prime, their death, and why they are still bad atm)

Ever since my second character (my first REAL character), I've been a lover of claws. They offered a cool way of surviving, by gaining flat life (at early base levels) or by life leech (at higher level bases). This was back in 0.something, when I first started playing the game.

Shortly after I started, while I was still leveling said character, the melee splash gem was added to the game. This revolutionized my own and many others' playstyles, as it made single skill melee a possibility, esp if dualwielding. (You could use the same attack for both single target and AoE). My choice at the time was Dual Strike.

Back in those days, getting instant life leech was typically done through the Vaal Pact Keystone, which had the penalty of 40% leech effectiveness. Atziri's Acuity at the time gave you 100% instant leech for crits (in 1.1). Also, the attack damage leech values on claws were not local, so they could stack (with each other, or allow the weapon in your other hand to also leech). A clever player figured out that if you placed the Bloodseeker unique claw in your main hand, all your leech would be instant if using Dual Strike with no penalty.

Around this time I had gone CI with my claw character and used this while dual wielding claws, allowing me to get 33% of physical attack damage leeched as life at instant speed. This was in patch 1.3, which I would consider the prime of not only claw builds but also builds known then as 'leech tanks'. These builds relied on fast, powerful life leech to tank damage. My own build, for instance, had over 16K ES/s recovery while attacking.

Then came the nerf hammer. Big time. With patch 2.0, all leech values across the tree were hit hard. Claws suffered in multiple ways. First, all leech became local, meaning using claws with other weapons no longer offered you leech, and using two claws offered no advantage over using one. Second, many of the high level claw base types were changed to LGoH instead of leech. This change made them essentially useless bases for physical claw builds (the only kind which the claw nodes on the tree really support). Third, the leech values on the claws themselves were reduced to the point that other weapons could leech exactly like a claw build and have a lot more damage due to claws' low base damage and better tree scaling for those other weapons. Ever since patch 2.0, there has never really been a successful or popular claw build on the forums (the ones from 1.3 and such, including mine, were discontinued).

Here's the basics of why claws are still pretty much useless or an inferior choice right now:
1) Claws lost their niche (leeching). Other weapons can pretty much leech exactly like a build with a claw could (or their leech is a tad lower, and since claws don't leech as much the difference is not significant).
2) Claws do less damage than other one hand weapon types (both from the base item, and scaling available from the tree).
3) Good phys claws are hard to find. This is because about half of the base types are useless for a phys build (since LGoH doesn't scale anywhere near as well into endgame DPS as leech does), and you're not going to any decent damage with a claw build without going crit (for the reasons described in 2). Also, pretty much all of the unique claws aside from Bloodseeker are pretty much useless for most claw builds.
4) The state of melee (Let's not discuss this here, please).

Anyway, to give claws a better place in the game, I would suggest:
1) Increasing the implicit leech of claws to give them a niche again. Make all or almost all of the high level claw bases have life leech instead of LGoH. This would make more bases usable for phys claw builds and allow them to fit their intended purpose in the game.
2) An extra notable wheel or two (or improved nodes in the tree) that support claw users. Right now there aren't really that many that are practical or located in good places.
3) Consider allowing claw leech/LGoH to be global again (rewards using a claw in a DW build for leech, and allows better leeching for a pure claw DW build). This would give them another use other than for claw builds.

Thoughts?

-Savage

Theorycrafter/Build Creator for PORTAL guild
@BlightScourge -> guide @ view-thread/1382667 (Retired till Mjolner is fixed)
Lvl 94 Crit Mjolner Marauder
twitch.tv/savagewolves
Last bumped on Jun 28, 2016, 8:47:09 PM
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the implicits on high-end bases are staggered - every odd one is LGoH, so there are also %leech implicits for end game claws so i wouldnt dig this aspect too much

claw base is in most cases better than dagger - it is faster. but the nodes are worse - this is the problem with claws, not the base. but they cannot squeeze more claw nodes because shadow already is oversaturated with nodes - he has EVERYTHING already and has highest node density of all classes. because someone thought it is a good idea to make him melee/caster/trapper/miner at the same time..


claw uniques are.. cruel. i do not understand why pretty much every unique claw is some sort of a gimmick. other weapon bases all have their 'leveling' items and 'endgame viable' items. claws.. are still waiting for their version of Bino's, Era, Doomsower, various bows etc.

Current POE is pretty much itemized like D3 - uniques make your builds. claws having not a single viable contender are left out. you can buy an end-game viable unique sword, axe or whatnot for pennies. it is guaranteed. try to buy 250-300 pdps (or ele equivalent) rare claw. it is PITA


as for the leech: GGG destroyed (or at least tried to) "Sponge Builds" on purpose. and i agree with that move. these builds were silly and made all defensive stats noob-choices. why bother with AR/EV/etc when you just get 15k ES and leech everything back in one hit. it wasnt healthy for the game. leech nerf was to remove (or make it difficult) this playstyle but it.. failed because leech nerf has been balanced with extreme power creep making entire nerf pretty pointless

the global leech cannot happen as this will end up just as silly as other global offhands - pick a skill incompatible with claws, use as offhand, profit. such skill, so much wow. all tricks with offhands that are just statsticks should be disabled - they make this game look silly. "oh, there is a weapon i cannot use but it miraculously provides me a bonus (while being unusable), oh how skilled i am!"


btw. i blame loot filters for the current 'claw situation' more than anything else. people do not pick them up -> there are very little available on the market -> prices are prohibitive -> people play with items that have guaranteed 1c starting-option
Spoiler
"
zSavage wrote:
Ever since my second character (my first REAL character), I've been a lover of claws. They offered a cool way of surviving, by gaining flat life (at early base levels) or by life leech (at higher level bases). This was back in 0.something, when I first started playing the game.

Shortly after I started, while I was still leveling said character, the melee splash gem was added to the game. This revolutionized my own and many others' playstyles, as it made single skill melee a possibility, esp if dualwielding. (You could use the same attack for both single target and AoE). My choice at the time was Dual Strike.

Back in those days, getting instant life leech was typically done through the Vaal Pact Keystone, which had the penalty of 40% leech effectiveness. Atziri's Acuity at the time gave you 100% instant leech for crits (in 1.1). Also, the attack damage leech values on claws were not local, so they could stack (with each other, or allow the weapon in your other hand to also leech). A clever player figured out that if you placed the Bloodseeker unique claw in your main hand, all your leech would be instant if using Dual Strike with no penalty.

Around this time I had gone CI with my claw character and used this while dual wielding claws, allowing me to get 33% of physical attack damage leeched as life at instant speed. This was in patch 1.3, which I would consider the prime of not only claw builds but also builds known then as 'leech tanks'. These builds relied on fast, powerful life leech to tank damage. My own build, for instance, had over 16K ES/s recovery while attacking.

Then came the nerf hammer. Big time. With patch 2.0, all leech values across the tree were hit hard. Claws suffered in multiple ways. First, all leech became local, meaning using claws with other weapons no longer offered you leech, and using two claws offered no advantage over using one. Second, many of the high level claw base types were changed to LGoH instead of leech. This change made them essentially useless bases for physical claw builds (the only kind which the claw nodes on the tree really support). Third, the leech values on the claws themselves were reduced to the point that other weapons could leech exactly like a claw build and have a lot more damage due to claws' low base damage and better tree scaling for those other weapons. Ever since patch 2.0, there has never really been a successful or popular claw build on the forums (the ones from 1.3 and such, including mine, were discontinued).

Here's the basics of why claws are still pretty much useless or an inferior choice right now:
1) Claws lost their niche (leeching). Other weapons can pretty much leech exactly like a build with a claw could (or their leech is a tad lower, and since claws don't leech as much the difference is not significant).
2) Claws do less damage than other one hand weapon types (both from the base item, and scaling available from the tree).
3) Good phys claws are hard to find. This is because about half of the base types are useless for a phys build (since LGoH doesn't scale anywhere near as well into endgame DPS as leech does), and you're not going to any decent damage with a claw build without going crit (for the reasons described in 2). Also, pretty much all of the unique claws aside from Bloodseeker are pretty much useless for most claw builds.
4) The state of melee (Let's not discuss this here, please).

Anyway, to give claws a better place in the game, I would suggest:
1) Increasing the implicit leech of claws to give them a niche again. Make all or almost all of the high level claw bases have life leech instead of LGoH. This would make more bases usable for phys claw builds and allow them to fit their intended purpose in the game.
2) An extra notable wheel or two (or improved nodes in the tree) that support claw users. Right now there aren't really that many that are practical or located in good places.
3) Consider allowing claw leech/LGoH to be global again (rewards using a claw in a DW build for leech, and allows better leeching for a pure claw DW build). This would give them another use other than for claw builds.

Thoughts?

-Savage



+1 to your suggestions, one other thing that they could do, would be to make the leech cap "looser" for claw users, or even to find some opportunities to reward leech play styles more.
PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...

Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...
Last edited by sofocle10000 on Jun 27, 2016, 1:01:56 AM
"
sidtherat wrote:
the implicits on high-end bases are staggered - every odd one is LGoH, so there are also %leech implicits for end game claws so i wouldnt dig this aspect too much


If 50% of the bases have an implicit that is useless for your build, you're 50% less likely to get a useful weapon from a drop of a high level base claw. Also, the best endgame bases, in order of preference, for a crit build, should be as follows:
#1 Vaal Claw - 2% Leech - 6.5% base crit - 1.3 APS - 66.44 base PDPS
#2/3/4 Eye Gouger/Throat Stabber/Gemini Claw - 31/21 LGoH /14 M+LGoH - 6.3% base crit - 64.98 base PDPS
#5 Imperial Claw - 25 LGoH - 6% base crit - 65.10 base PDPS
#6 Great White Claw - 34 LGoH - 6.5% base crit - 65.10 base PDPS

7th place is Hellion's Paw, 8th being Terror Claw. Only Vaal Claws have a useful implicit for endgame physical claw builds, and 2% leech is nothing compared to what some uniques offer and the leech available for all purpose use in the tree (or from a class like Berserker).

"
sidtherat wrote:

claw base is in most cases better than dagger - it is faster. but the nodes are worse - this is the problem with claws, not the base. but they cannot squeeze more claw nodes because shadow already is oversaturated with nodes - he has EVERYTHING already and has highest node density of all classes. because someone thought it is a good idea to make him melee/caster/trapper/miner at the same time..


I agree. Any new nodes should not be near shadow. And we both agree that the nodes are not good that currently exist.

"
sidtherat wrote:

as for the leech: GGG destroyed (or at least tried to) "Sponge Builds" on purpose. and i agree with that move. these builds were silly and made all defensive stats noob-choices. why bother with AR/EV/etc when you just get 15k ES and leech everything back in one hit. it wasnt healthy for the game. leech nerf was to remove (or make it difficult) this playstyle but it.. failed because leech nerf has been balanced with extreme power creep making entire nerf pretty pointless


I also agree about the sponge build thing. The issue for claws is that, regardless of if you were life based or ES based, being a sponge was all the weapon type really offered before over other bases. And now that's gone. I'd like to think that making claws to be more 'sponge'-like would be good for the weapon type, make it see use, and wouldn't really have a significant impact on the balance of the game. Closest thing we have to a sponge build ATM is a berserker with that 100% damage leeched as life node (which actually acts a lot like the old sponge builds).

"
sidtherat wrote:

btw. i blame loot filters for the current 'claw situation' more than anything else. people do not pick them up -> there are very little available on the market -> prices are prohibitive -> people play with items that have guaranteed 1c starting-option


most people believe them to be bad -> lootfilter writers don't include them -> people do not pick them up -> there are very little available on the market -> prices are prohibitive -> people play with items that have guaranteed 1c starting-option

I would say the loot filter issue stems from the fact that claws are sub optimal or believed to be, and hence has served to make it harder to get a good claw anyways.
Theorycrafter/Build Creator for PORTAL guild
@BlightScourge -> guide @ view-thread/1382667 (Retired till Mjolner is fixed)
Lvl 94 Crit Mjolner Marauder
twitch.tv/savagewolves
I agree on your take m8 and your suggestions, but there is another solution much simpler than many think, though GGG would never do that, make certain skills only usable with claws, prime example is reave, the skill was literally implemented to make claws more appealing.
Inundated with cockroaches, I am

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216 - labyrinth rework ideas/suggestions
bump
Theorycrafter/Build Creator for PORTAL guild
@BlightScourge -> guide @ view-thread/1382667 (Retired till Mjolner is fixed)
Lvl 94 Crit Mjolner Marauder
twitch.tv/savagewolves
I have never played a claw wielder, and I think the reason is that I can not remember ever seeing a claw drop where I said to myself.....man that's a good item, I'm going to see if I can make a build for it.
"
sidtherat wrote:


claw base is in most cases better than dagger - it is faster. but the nodes are worse - this is the problem with claws, not the base. but they cannot squeeze more claw nodes because shadow already is oversaturated with nodes - he has EVERYTHING already and has highest node density of all classes. because someone thought it is a good idea to make him melee/caster/trapper/miner at the same time..



now i am going to trhow this and hope it dosent start a flame war but why are claws int-dex in the first place? str - dexd seems more fitting.


anyway. claws could use some love, personaly i would go with higher attack speed to mark the diference with daggers, make them dpm monsters plus it has good sinergy with the life gain on hit implicit.



self found league fan

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/324242/page/1

A claw only skill would be amazing if well designed on focus around the claws philosphy.

Spoiler
Ho wait, no one would use claws but this instead.

Well played GGG, well played.
Last edited by IceDeal on Jun 27, 2016, 6:20:14 PM
Problem with claws is leeching isn't a really good special mechanic for them anymore.

They should had focused bleeding/poison/status effects in general around claws as oppose to adding them to bows which didn't need them for ascends.

Claws were even forgotten for ascends LOL
Last edited by RagnarokChu on Jun 27, 2016, 7:01:38 PM

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