~ Does the Bow Damage nodes affect Puncture?
|
Puncture hits the target for weapon damage. It then applies a Damage over Time debuff to the target. These are separate things.
It's not "double dipping", it's two separate instances of single dipping. There are two instances of damage being dealt, and each is affected by a separate set of modifiers. There is some overlap in those modifiers, because some of the modifiers are global. Physical Bow Attack damage is Physical Damage - so the base damage value is affected by increases to physical damage, and the final damage is mitigated by physical damage mitigation. Physical Damage over Time is Physical Damage - so the base damage value is affected by increases to physical damage, and the final damage is mitigated by physical damage mitigation. This is consistent with everything else in the game, and changing it would either make it inconsistent, or change those things so that they didn't make sense. Should increased chaos damage not apply to Poison Arrow's cloud because it's chaos damage over time? If you have added chaos damage supporting the gem, should that increased chaos damage then only apply to the hit damage, and not the cloud? Should Ignite not be affected by Fire damage increases? Despite the fact it will be affected by fire resistance? Puncture isn't going to get arbitrary special treatment to make it work unlike all the similar things in the game - that would be inconsistent and confusing. The current system makes sense and has all damage of a type be affected by modifiers to that type of damage. Last edited by Mark_GGG on Nov 2, 2014, 10:32:15 PM
| |
|
Well, formatting bugs ate a bunch of my post, and I see the thread progressed a bit while I compiled it, so I'll see what I can recover and then repost an updated version here at some point.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Nov 3, 2014, 1:04:47 AM
| |
"It doesn't. I was referring to the fact that increased chaos damage will affect the cloud, and if the added chaos support is in play, those same increases also separately affect the hit damage, similar to how physical damage increases apply both to the hit and the bleed - the "it" in the second sentence was intended to refer to the increased chaos damage modifier, not the added chaos support. I've modified the quoted post to be more clear. "I'd define double dipping as a single value/calculation getting the effect of one modifier twice. This is two separate instances of calculating damage, where each damage value is separately affected by the modifier once. For a specific example, if using cold to fire meant that "5% increased elemental damage" affected your converted damage twice (for a total of 10%) because cold damage is elemental and fire damage is elemental, then that would be double-dipping - the same value being modified twice by one modifier. The way the game actually works, this doesn't happen, of course. The 5% increased elemental damage modifier correctly applies once to the converted damage. "Increased damage does not apply to an attack. It applies to damage. Punctures attack speed, animation, mana cost, etc are all elements that make up "the whole attack" but are completely unaffected by the damage modifier. Thus I'm forced to conclude that what you actually mean is: This modifier applies to all instances of damage calculation performed by the attack. If you disagree with this interpretation, then we'll have to go back to this and discuss further (which I'm happy to do), but assuming for now that you accept this re-wording of your post, my response is: Yes. That damage modifier applies to all instances of damage calculation done by the attack - that's intuitive, consistent and sensible for it to do. If I hit two enemies with cleave, I calculate damage against each of them. Both instances of damage calculation area affected by increased physical damage. If I hit the same enemy twice with double strike, there are two instances of damage calculation. Both instances of damage calculation area affected by increased physical damage. If I hit & kill an enemy with infernal blow, there are two instances of damage calculation which deal different kinds of damage (attack damage with the hit, and secondary damage with the explosion). While attack-specific modifiers will only affect the hit, both instances of damage calculation are affected by increased fire damage. If I hit an enemy with Poison Arrow and have some amount of added chaos damage on the hit "By sticking to the fact that if something is directly described as physical damage, and that damage is reduced by physical damage reduction, then that damage will be increased by "increased physical damage". Physical damage as listed on your bow is clearly physical damage, so the modifier should apply to it. Physical damage per second dealt by the bleed similarly is clearly called physical damage, and will be mitigated by physical damage reduction, so it should also be affected by a modifier called "increased physical damage". How do you propose for it to be clear to a player that "increased physical damage" with no other qualifiers doesn't apply to something that's explicitly labelled as being physical damage and treated as such in all other respects? "I don't see why that's relevant to the issue? There are specific increased fire spell damage nodes, but that doesn't stop the global/generic increased fire damage nodes applying to fire damage from spells, and nor should it. "Because having modifiers be able to be both generic and specific is good for the game and allows different levels of specialisation? Why are there both "increased spell damage" nodes and "increased fire damage" nodes despite the fact both can apply to fireball?
Why are there "increased melee damage nodes" and "increased physical damage with axes nodes", even though both apply to swinging axes at things?
Increased physical damage nodes affect all physical damage. This includes physical damage over time, but also includes physical damage from attack and spells, etc. DoT nodes affect all damage over time. This includes physical damage over time, but also includes burning, poison, etc. "The existence of a more specific modifier doesn't mean a general modifier shouldn't also apply. I'm reasonably certain you wouldn't claim that "increased physical damage" nodes shouldn't apply to damage I deal with axes because, to paraphrase, "that's what Increased Physical Damage with Axes is for, right?". Just as the existence of the axe specific nodes doesn't mean general physical damage modifiers don't apply to axes, the existence of the burn specific nodes doesn't mean general fire damage modifiers don't apply to fire damage from burns. Simply put, I don't see any argument as to why one of these statements would be interpreted as true and the other false
"As noted above, this part of my post was ambiguous and has thus been misinterpreted. " Basically, I think this part of your post is where we identify the real issue - I don't think it's actually about applying to the "whole attack" or about both general and specific nodes existing, because those things work fine in other cases you don't question. I think the issue comes from you seeing the puncture hit damage and the puncture bleed damage as less separate than they actually are. In the case of hitting with fire damage and causing an ignite, there are two separate instances of damage. I hit you for damage: There's a base value for this damage. It probably comes from a weapon for an attack or a gem for a spell. But might be from, for example, the maximum life of an enemy I'm blowing up. But it doesn't matter at all where the base damage value comes from - only what the value is. Damage calculation doesn't change how it works based on what we did to get the base value. That base value is affected by all my relevant modifiers to my damage - this will include "increased fire damage". This is then mitigated by the enemy (fire resistance, in this case). This is further modified by any modifiers to damage taken the enemy has (most commonly shock). This gives us the final value of damage I dealt to the enemy, which is taken from life. The hit causes an ignite: There's a base value for this damage (per second). In this case it comes from the amount of fire damage I dealt. But might be from, for example, overkill damage with Herald of Ash (which might not involve fire damage at all) But it doesn't matter at all where the base damage value comes from - only what the value is. Damage calculation doesn't change how it works based on what we did to get the base value. That base value is affected by all my relevant modifiers to my damage - this will include "increased fire damage". This is then mitigated by the enemy (fire resistance, in this case). This is further modified by any modifiers to damage taken the enemy has (most commonly shock). This gives us the final value of damage (per second) I dealt to the enemy, which is taken from life (over time). Under your theoretical system (if I understand you correctly) ignite isn't affected by "increased fire damage" - despite clearly being fire damage, and still being affected by the enemy's fire resistance. I don't, personally, see this as better or more intuitive at all. "It's not directly related. It is related, but I hope the above breakdown of the two damage calculations helps explain why I would not consider the two damage results to be directly related. "This isn't about "deserving" anything - this is, at it's heart, about two things (which are kinda related, so maybe one-and-a-half-things): 1) Something called "physical damage" should be affected by "increased physical damage". "Physical damage per second" is clearly "physical damage" and thus should be affected. 2) If something is affected by mitigation against a specific damage type, it should first have been increased by your increases to that damage type. This post ended up way longer than I intended due to trying to be as clear as possible and provide examples, so I'm stopping now, but feel free to discuss further and I'll respond tomorrow. Last edited by Mark_GGG on Nov 3, 2014, 2:00:36 AM
| |
"To clarify: Ignite/Ignited is the fire elemental status ailment. It is usually caused by getting a crit with fire damage, but can be caused by other means, and there is not necessarily any fire damage, or any hit, involved in causing it. Burning is a more general term, which refers to any form of fire damage over time. Ignite is one form of burning, as are ground fire, searing bond, Righteous Fire, etc. Ignite is burning (it deals fire damage over time), but not all forms of burning are ignite. Burning as a term doesn't actually clarify anything more than if we just said "fire damage over time", but it's shorter, more thematic and reasonably intuitive to use the term "burning" in this way, and it helps us refer to all forms of burning in in-game text (such as the flask mod that removes burning). Last edited by Mark_GGG on Nov 3, 2014, 5:34:51 PM
| |
"The modifier is only applying once to the DoT. There is a side effect on the base value of the DoT caused by the modifier applying to the initial hit, but that doesn't have the effect of the modifier on the DoT. "No it won't. Because the effect of actually applying the modifier to the DoT increases it by the value of the modifier (stacking additively with other applicable modifiers). Whereas the "effect" that applying the modifier to the initial damage has doesn't apply that amount of increase. There's a whole host of other steps involved between the two that change the value further, such that saying it's square is mathematically untrue except in one specific case where there's no other modifiers in place and no mitigation of any sort - which I don't even think is possible in the game. |
