Why not keep leveling up on CWDT/Enfeeble?

I note that a number of builds recommend using CWDT with Enfeeble and/or sundry other gems, with the usual proviso that you not level them past a certain point to keep the triggering threshold low. Question is why?

I get that you might want to have the mechanism kicking in with some protection ASAP before you start sustaining serious damage, but in the long term wouldn't it be more beneficial to have the gems leveling so that you get more protection percentage-wise to offset the increasing damage meted out as you progress through the levels? I could understand the reluctance to level up the gems if the threshold was a percentage figure, but it's not, it's a fixed number, so the higher you level your build up the more insignificant the figure becomes over time given the natural progression in defensive numbers.

I know in the overall scheme of things the numbers aren't huge, but still, I figure having 8% - 9% more protection from a gem when the going gets tough can make a difference.

Or is it more a case about conserving mana, even if linked up to a reducing gem?

I agree.

Even if you level your CwDT gem to proc every 1000-1100 damage, it stills goes off often enough to be effective.

The same goes for immortal call. Immortal call is useless at level 1. Using a level one CwDT seems like a bad idea in my mind. I do not need to proc immortal call - the the monsters around me isn't dealing damage...

It is build and preference dependant. Run what works for you. I run many different cwdt setups from lvl 1 to lvl 20 depending on many factors. IC i usually run at lvl 7 iirc, molten shell lvl 20, curses/EC lvl 1 to 5. Etc. etc.

I'm usually using 2x CWDTs, one lvl1 and one lvl20. Level 1 CWDT is linked with Enfeeble (lvl5) and Endurance Cry (lvl5) and level 20 with Immortal Call and Molten Shell (in some situations I use Increased Duration instead MS). You need constant spam of Endurance Cry so you can have your Endurance charges always up. Against certain bosses (like Atiziri or Dominus) I also need to have them under Enfeeble from start to the end of fight so they can't 1 hit me. For example, I don't want to get near level 78 Dominus if he isn't under Enfeeble because his Touch of God can easily 1 hit me. Level 5 Enfeeble is enough for that.

Okay. Interesting reading. I'm only on my second build and following someone else's ideas, so you can perhaps understand my confusion.

First time around I used a couple of things like Vulnerability and so on, but triggered them manually - I had it set up on my mouse's scrolling wheel and just kept that sucker bouncing away almost automatically as soon as I'd see anything. For curiosity I switched it into my latest build and found, naturally enough, that using it manually at its level 18 output was more effective than Enfeeble at its much lower level. Obviously that's not a great comparison - two Enfeebles at distinctly different levels would have been the proper field test.

So that's what got me curious regarding why I was being asked to keep the Enfeeble/CWDT combo at such low levels. I may start easing both up (or just catch up by buying a couple that are already appropriately leveled) and link them to a reduced mana gem, as I'm at the point of tossing in another CWDT combo (Immortal call/Enduring Cry) and an aura or two as I head into maps for the first time.

As for the reference to Molten Shell, I use that as well (with Fire penetration/Iron Will/Increased duration) but I just have that set up for manual use via the ALT key. Don't know if it's supposed to be better on auto, I'm just so used to doing it manually when things get tough, with my thumb always resting on the ALT key, that I don't even think about it.

But thanks, I'll take what you guys said on board and give it more thought.

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phrazz wrote:

I agree.

Even if you level your CwDT gem to proc every 1000-1100 damage, it stills goes off often enough to be effective.

The same goes for immortal call. Immortal call is useless at level 1. Using a level one CwDT seems like a bad idea in my mind. I do not need to proc immortal call - the the monsters around me isn't dealing damage...

with my build CwDT lvl 1 + Immortal + Increase Duration is perfect.
Because i always have between 2-4 endurance charge.

Romira's banquet
Voll's devotion
Mjolner Discharge


so it's really different from the build itself.

usually i played immortal call around lvl 15, and a second setup with a low level enduring cry

when i play multiple curses, i put all of them on cwdt setup or all except one which is manual cast.

You can play with low level Immortal call if it have quality, Q20 lvl1 IC is same like Q0 lvl19 IC. I prefer higher level IC and lower lvl EC on separate CWDTs, I don't need to spam IC, I need it just for hard hits. Endurance charges are sometimes better than IC.

I find Immortal call to be useless with cwdt. You want that skill activated before you take damage not after you have taken damage. So the only way is to activate it manually.

Only use for cwdt+immortal call i have ever found is for some protection vs physical reflect.

Also linking cwdt+ic+ms make no sense to me. Ic is making you immune to physical damage so the armour from ms is moot.

Well, I don't find it necessary to manually cast IC because there is not some significant physical damage in game, at least nothing that can 1 hit you so I basically only need protection against multiple hard phy hits (like 3 Atziri guardians fight) and as protection against Corrupted blood. Molten shell almost always last more than Immortal call so it grants me protection in between two IC casts. Also, I get some additional dps from MS.

There's a few reasons that it's commonly just left at level 1.

The first is that the trigger threshold is the lowest. This means it casts more often for more groups and sooner in the battle so the curse is on after the first hit. Both of these mean you will take less over all damage because your curse starts mitigating damage earlier. Over the 20 levels it gains 9% additional reduction among other things. Since the curse is so front loaded with its benefit it makes it an ideal candidate for a low level cwdt.

Another reason people commonly forget is that it keeps the stat requirements very low. Low on str and intended so it can fit into almost any build. In fact the only builds it doesn't work well with are ones that require a curse on the monsters and overwriting that curse with enfeeble (if you lack the ability to have 2 or more curses) actually hurts the build more than helps.

I find cwdt + immortal call + enduring cry + a leveled increased duration (because the trigger gem doesn't stop you from using leveled supports) does great for characters prone to being stunned because it prevents stun lock from physical damage.

Many of the other posters have covered situations that having a higher level gem can be useful.