Barrage vs Frenzy

Since patch 1.1.1 Barrage has no Attack Speed penalty, maybe worth invest in this skill?

Example:

(No support gems)

Lvl 20 Barrage: 40 % Efectiveness * 4 * (1 + 76%) = 281,60 % damage
Lvl 20 Frenzy: 112 % damage --- with 5 Frenzy Charges: 112% * (1 + (5*11%)) IAS = 173,60 % damage

Barrage 20/20: 40 % Efectiveness * 4 * (1 + 76% + 10 %) = 297,60 % damage
Frenzy 20/20: 112 % damage --- with 5 Frenzy Charges: 112% * (1 + (5*18%)) IAS = 212,80 % damage

is this ok?

am i missing something?

Sorry for my english.

frenzy hands down.

if you dont do frenzy build , then barrage .... maybe

"

_Dunadan_ wrote:

am i missing something?

The Barrage damage boost is "increased".

It doesn't stack quite as simply as you describe it.

The situation you describe only works if you have no other sources of increased damage.

With more sources of increased damage you have to add them up first and only then multiply. So if you have 100% increased damage from the tree you get 176% increased total.

On top of that you don't seem to be counting that Frenzy's increased damage is per Frenzy Charge (so it's 100% effectiveness with 60% increased damage for 5 charges).

Barrage is easily better.. if all shots hit the enemy. The issue with barrage is that it's highly unreliable at longer ranges.

"

Gobla wrote:

"

_Dunadan_ wrote:

am i missing something?

The Barrage damage boost is "increased".

It doesn't stack quite as simply as you describe it.

The situation you describe only works if you have no other sources of increased damage.

With more sources of increased damage you have to add them up first and only then multiply. So if you have 100% increased damage from the tree you get 176% increased total.

On top of that you don't seem to be counting that Frenzy's increased damage is per Frenzy Charge (so it's 100% effectiveness with 60% increased damage for 5 charges).

Let's say this full DPS conf (all lvl 20/0) and 160% inc. damage from the tree:

Frenzy (Barrage)-Faster attacks-Physical Projectile Attack Damage-added fire damage

Math:

Barrage: 40%*4*(1+76%+49%+160%)damage*(1+44%)IAS= 887,04 % damage
Frenzy with 5 FC: 112%*(1+49%+160%)*(1+70%+44%)= 740,61 % damage

if i'm not wrong barrage's still dealing more damage than frenzy (of course hitting 4 arrows).

frenzy has CRAZY mana cost when specced into. barrage is more manageable

barrage is perfect for wand CoCS builds, esp after removal of that attack speed penalty

"

_Dunadan_ wrote:

"

Gobla wrote:

"

_Dunadan_ wrote:

am i missing something?

The Barrage damage boost is "increased".

It doesn't stack quite as simply as you describe it.

The situation you describe only works if you have no other sources of increased damage.

With more sources of increased damage you have to add them up first and only then multiply. So if you have 100% increased damage from the tree you get 176% increased total.

On top of that you don't seem to be counting that Frenzy's increased damage is per Frenzy Charge (so it's 100% effectiveness with 60% increased damage for 5 charges).

Let's say this full DPS conf (all lvl 20/0) and 160% inc. damage from the tree:

Frenzy (Barrage)-Faster attacks-Physical Projectile Attack Damage-added fire damage

Math:

Barrage: 40%*4*(1+76%+49%+160%)damage*(1+44%)IAS= 887,04 % damage
Frenzy with 5 FC: 112%*(1+49%+160%)*(1+70%+44%)= 740,61 % damage

if i'm not wrong barrage's still dealing more damage than frenzy (of course hitting 4 arrows).

Physical Projectile is a "more" modifier, it does multiply. But it and Added Fire damage don't really matter since they modify both skills the exact same way.

Barrage would get: 40% * 4 * 336% * 1.44 = 774%
Frenzy with 5 charges would get: 100% * 320% * 2.14 = 684%

So you'd be right that Barrage's damage potential is higher. Below replies are also right that Frenzy's actual damage is higher since, unless you're near melee range, you'll only very rarely hit all 4 shots.

A more realistic comparison would be 3 shots of Barrage hitting, meaning it's at 580% damage.

Personally the only build in which I would use or advise Barrage is Point Blank + Chin Sol, effectively creating a melee ranger. In that case you'd be assured of all 4 arrows hitting and gain as much benefit as humanly possible from the close range modifiers.

You guys are completely ignoring the major base damage penalty on barrage and more specifically how that factors in to added damage.

One large hit (from frenzy) will deal far more physical damage to targets due to the way armor scales, so that is an important consideration as well.

Status effects: If you have a strong physical build, try running hatred and see how many times you freeze the mob with frenzy vs barrage. The small hits here do not add up to cause a freeze. In my experience even with modest phys damage points/gear frenzy will cause a freeze almost every time.

Leech: Since the leech nerf you are going to be better off with single large hits, unless you take vaal pact. Without vp you will probably get only a tiny amount of leech from the first hit on barrage and the rest of the hits will do nothing since leech no longer queues.

So yeah barrage is usually better for CoC and maybe life on hit but that is probably it.

Thx for your responses.

"

Fatalflaw wrote:

You guys are completely ignoring the major base damage penalty on barrage and more specifically how that factors in to added damage.

One large hit (from frenzy) will deal far more physical damage to targets due to the way armor scales, so that is an important consideration as well.

Status effects: If you have a strong physical build, try running hatred and see how many times you freeze the mob with frenzy vs barrage. The small hits here do not add up to cause a freeze. In my experience even with modest phys damage points/gear frenzy will cause a freeze almost every time.

Leech: Since the leech nerf you are going to be better off with single large hits, unless you take vaal pact. Without vp you will probably get only a tiny amount of leech from the first hit on barrage and the rest of the hits will do nothing since leech no longer queues.

So yeah barrage is usually better for CoC and maybe life on hit but that is probably it.

One of those is correct. The others not so much.

Mobs don't have any armor worth speaking of. Fast attack speed has more trouble with Lightning Thorns and Corrupting Blood while slow attacks have more trouble with Physical Reflect, because the player usually does have Armor or Arctic Armor.

Barrage has a higher total Damage Effectiveness than Frenzy so added damage will benefit it more, if and only if you hit with all attacks of course. Whether that damage is spread out over 4 hits or all in one hit doesn't matter, Barrage has an effective Damage Effectiveness of 160% with 4 hits and 120% with 3 hits.

Status Effects is the one you were right about.

Leech doesn't really matter. Barrage's hits are spaced out evenly and don't hit enemies at the same time. It will leech just as well as Frenzy during combat, leech will only end slightly earlier once combat is over. If Barrage leeches overlap and you only benefit from the first then Frenzy leeches will also overlap and you'll also only benefit from one out of 4 shots.

The Leech change only impacts when you hit monsters at the exact same time or once combat is over.