mana cost Vs. maximum mana nodes

So I wondered, which nodes give the best bonus and when does it even out?
# avg reduced mana cost nodes give 5% reduced mana cost.
# avg increased maximum mana does adds 8% to maximum mana.

with 8% increased max mana node: we get 108% effective mana
with 5% reduced mana cost node: we get 100/95~=~105% effective mana
which means that with only one node, max mana is better.

with 80% (10 nodes) increased max mana node: we get 180% effective mana
with 50% (10 nodes) reduced mana cost node: we get 100/50=200% effective mana
which means that with 10 nodes, reduced mana cost is better.

let's put them together in a function and see how they work:
# x-points invested in reduced mana cost.
# y-points invested in max mana.
effective mana=f(x,y)=100%*(100+8y)/(100-x)

After doing some calculation I've found that:
# if you plan to invest 7 points or less, you'll get a bigger bonus from increased max mana nodes (and no reduced mana nodes at all ).
# if you plan to invest 8 points or more, you'll get a bigger bonus from reduced mana nodes (and no increased max mana nodes at all).

we are talking about avg here, but still we can learn that you should invest only in one if possible to get the most effective mana.

Don't forget that if you invest more in reduced mana nodes you'll be able to leech back you mana easier.

Tell me if you find mistakes.

If you are using spells, it doesnt really matter, you will still need the mana leech support. The mana costs on spells are fucking insane.

On a more ontopic note, reduced mana costs have VASTLY greater effects as the mana costs of your skills go up. You should make sure to put mana costs into your math.

For instance 5% reduced cost on high level clarity is an obviously better choice than 8% more mana.

"

tramshed wrote:

If you are using spells, it doesnt really matter, you will still need the mana leech support. The mana costs on spells are fucking insane.

That was part of the point. With reduced mana costs, you don't need to leech as much mana to keep up.

The downsides: Clarity is a flat cost, not a percentage, and reduced mana cost nodes don't exist in the witch area of the skill tree. There are a few around the templar, but most are firmly in the melee areas of the skill tree.

I agree, but I see no reason for his equation to not include the cost of the skills being used. Makes it more useful since you can then figure out exactly which is the better option on a case by case basis, instead of a global generalization.

this is only half of the picture - that is 'max mana'

what you really use and need is 'max mana over time' that is max mana + mana regen

from the tree there are FOUR factors affecting this:

- mana %
- mana flat (from +mana and from +int nodes)
- reduced mana cost
- mana regen

these all are multiplicative with each other and as such it is best to have a bit of some of these. ratios can be calculated with spreadsheet knowing total mana and mana cost of the target skill

this is clearly visible when going for EB builds

PS none of my casters or characters in general used mana leech. it is not needed

Lucky you sir, my fire templar sucks about 300mana/sec

for builds with AA and self cast incinerate there is EB...

for other builds (with no AA) there are ways to do it without mana leech. but in some cases 'paper dps greed' eclipses common sense and well..

"

sidtherat wrote:

this is only half of the picture - that is 'max mana'

what you really use and need is 'max mana over time' that is max mana + mana regen

from the tree there are FOUR factors affecting this:

- mana %
- mana flat (from +mana and from +int nodes)
- reduced mana cost
- mana regen

these all are multiplicative with each other and as such it is best to have a bit of some of these. ratios can be calculated with spreadsheet knowing total mana and mana cost of the target skill

this is clearly visible when going for EB builds

PS none of my casters or characters in general used mana leech. it is not needed

"this is only half of the picture - that is 'max mana'"
True, didn't think about it that way.

+mana is additive thus doesn't change the results of my calculation.
Reduced mana nodes "raises" mana regeneration rate.

Casters usually don't get near reduced mana nodes, it's more for str/dex zones, and there you almost always have to leech mana. The entire point was to see if I need to invest in both type of nodes to get the best bonus and when does one's bonus surpasses the other.

EB builds dont need mana leech. I have 3500 mana FP some mana regen on tree and gear and it's ok (including AA). But without very good gear it would be impossible.