Leap Slam vs Lightning Warp
|
I don't really understand the design principals at work here:
Leap Slam: +Can be built to be your main damaging move +Lets you move faster than you can probably run, even with phase run (in large groups I can often outrun my party members by spamming this) +Cheap mana cost +Very large AoE +Can climb up walls +Has knockback +Scales well with weapon damage and attack speed +Great for emergency escapes Lightning Warp: -Can't (I've tried) -Can't move faster with it than you can run -Expensive mana cost -Mediocre area of effect +Can climb up walls -Doesn't have knockback (I guess it can stun?) -Awkward to try and hit with the skill twice (how often are there two nearby circles of area you can damage) -Doesn't knockback -Requires the person stack movement speed, cast speed, spell damage, critical damage; doesn't scale well because of how hard it is to build for -Sucks at helping you escape emergencies Both skills put you in melee range of your enemis, or can be used to take you out. I understood the design reasons for making LW only let you move at your normal run speed, but after having made a successful leap slam bulid with a witch (really, really successful), I am utterly baffled as to why Lightning Warp is so horrible of a spell. Leap Slam is fine. Why can't Lightning Warp be more like Leap Slam? My Keystone Ideas: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/744282 Last edited by anubite#0701 on Oct 2, 2012, 3:06:53 PM
This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.
|
|
|
I couldn't agree more, Lightning Warp is definitely not as fun as Leap Slam (leap slam is seriously an awesome skill guys, sooo much fun to use).
Increase Attack Speed Increase Damage Decrease AOE |
|
|
I absolutely agree, it should at least be like 1.5 times your movespeed or something. using it as an escape is abysmal. additionally, i don't understand why the skill has a minimum distance. It should just have a minimum cast time so that you can't mega spam point blank. Removing the minimum range would allow for the player to hit bothe exit and entry for a more fun effect and to make it a primary damage skill.
(p.s. if flicker strike can be a primary damage move with the simple addition of blood rage, why can't lightning warp?) |
|
|
Faults found with Lightning Warp appear to be largely based on a misapprehension of the spell's unique effects, namely the ability to prepare a transition and the dual proximity casting, and comparing abilities which presumably don't share the same purview will lead to apparent differences.
Instead of going over a more exhaustive account all I will put forward is the simple query of whether the spell's unique capabilities can be put to good (let's say 'creative' or even 'skillful') use. Even saying that I realise there is a disjunctive between skills (though in some ways more than others - escape is often simply materialising outside the range of immediate combat). Some abilities can be used effectively for little effort or creative endeavour but that is not necessarily a standard which should be uniform for all possible skills and their uses. I am fond of Lightning Warp, there is plenty that can be said about its uses in itself which work well enough as a method of alternating positioning around groups whilst coupling unique spellcasting effects. An extension of this is the the quasi-status of attacking in once place whilst 'moving' into another location. I imagine in time that type of ability will become useful in a variety of ways. |
|
|
If the damage came up or the mana cost came down it would be fine.
I've made two characters based around Lightning Warp. One was a LW totemancer (which I highly suggest) and the other ran LW alongside Tempest Shield and lightning/shock spec. Both ended up being less viable than I initially wanted (but not unplayable). |
|
|
Maybe this is because leap slam is a melee attack and warp is just a spell... You forgot to mention that warp deals the damage twice while leap slam only at the landing area. Also warp lets you run around until the teleport happens. I don't think it is wise to compare these two skills at all. But one thing is true: lightning warp needs some tweaks.
✠ ✠
|
|
"Very true, but it has a major limiting factor unfortunately. Server synchronization while attempting to do this can cause you to teleport incorrectly and sometimes not even teleport at all. I would love to use this skill especially because you can 'technically' attack at the same time as running away, but it just doesnt work too consistently at this stage |
|
"I've seen people who would disagree. "Yes, this is due to fundamental differences in the purposes of the skills. Lightning warps is very specifically not meant to help you move around faster. Leap Slam can (after the recent speed changes) if you have enough attack speed. "This is nothing to do with these two skill, but the fundamental differences between spells and attacks. Attacks let you hit with your weapon, doing the damage from it. Spells generate damage out of thin air, and this costs mana. Dealing damge with your weapon, at base, costs no mana (default attack). Generating base damage out of nowhere costs noticeable amounts of mana (damaging spells), but does not require up-to-date weapons. "I can only conclude from this that either you consider very large AoE to be mediocre, or you were comparing Leap slam with lots of +AoE to lightning warp without. Lightning Warp's base AoE is bigger than Leap Slam's, adn both are affected by the same modifiers. Unless leap slam is supported by the increased area support and lightning warp isn't, any given character will get more AoE from Lightning Warp than Leap Slam. "Correct. "I am assuming it was a mistake that you included this point twice against Lightning Warp? It doesn't make sense for Lightning Warp to have base knockback because it's not physically pushing against anything, where it does make sense on Leap Slam because you're pushing things out of the way as you land. You can support it with the chance to knockback support if you so wish. "I have found that "Scales well with" and "Requires you to stack" tend to actually meant he same thing depending on how someone feels about the thing in question. Lightning Warp is improved by spell damage bonuses cast speed bonuses. Movement speed improvements are not necessary, nor always beneficial to use of Lightning Warp. Leap Slam scales with Attack speed and weapon damage. Both scale equally with Crit damage, so I am unsure why you listed that only against lightning warp - both can crit and both get benefit from critting. It's just easier to get crit with lightning warp (often) because it tends to be used by intelligence builds. "Lightning Warp has never been intended to work as an emergency button, and making it do so would stop it working for what it is intended for. It's designed to be a skill you plan to use, not one you click when things don't go your way. "I am at a loss as to how this is a negative point. Surely the correct comparison is: Leap Slam: -Can't hit twice Lightning Warp +Can hit twice. How is "can hit twice but it's sometimes hard to do" worse than "can never hit twice"? "Lightning Warp is (at least reasonably) fine as well, at what it does. The two are very different skills. Lightning Warp's primary function is that you can set it up in advance, thus letting you then wade into a group of enemies to unload some Novas or other close-range spells, and have the warp pull you out before you die, damaging things around you more as you leave, and also getting a hit on anything that's moved to wait for you near the exit point. It also has other uses, such as using it over short range with increased AoE, such that you can catch some monsters in both damage areas as they overlap. Leap Slam, on the other hand, is primarily a movement skill that lets you hit enemies around you and knock them back a bit to make it a good opener for combat - you can slam into the middle of a group and then proceed to sweep or other AoE. Where Lightning Warp's Primary prupose is to be set up to get you out, Leap Slam's is to get you in. Both can and have been the focus of builds, although I can't personally comment on the current state of Lightning Warp's damage compared to Monster (or player, for PVP) resistances. | |
|
Isn't the increased mana cost of LW offset by the fact that it is an intelligence based skill. If you are using primarily intelligence based skills, your points towards intelligence would likely be higher, and thus your mana pool would be higher. With leap slam your probably going strength based and thus likely have a smaller mana pool ( not counting blood magic ). So the ratio of what % of your mana is used per cast would be offset a bit by this wouldn't it?
"I would have listened... I would have understood!" - Scion
Have you removed Asus ROG/GameFirst yet? |
|
" Well, while that is a sensible thing to state, it is just as sensible to say "blood magic" and end the debate right there (blood magic makes the casting of a low mana cost skill trivial, your intelligence/mana pool become irrelevant). I frequently have mana issues on my mage characters that don't use blood magic. I never have skill issues with blood magic, even when I'm running a blood magic quill rain build. -- Thanks for your response Mark. My original post wasn't that great. It was just a gripe I guess. It wasn't very well put together. Suffice to say, I think both skills are extremely similar. I tried to bulid a character around lightning warp from scratch, and it failed horribly. Meanwhile, my leap slam Witch is level 60 and it was (relatively) a breeze. Though I did die a whole lot getting there (mostly because I was careless jumping into things). Leap Slam is spammable and Lightning Warp is not. I guess that's the main contention. Because Lightning Warp has a delay, you have to fight and wrestle with it to make it spammable (you need to get as much movement and cast speed as possible; often forsaking spell damage, crit damage, and mana to compensate). Because the spell is not really spammable, it's not really viable as a direct damage spell. Yes, Lighting Warp potentially hits twice, but it seldom counts. In the time you can make it hit twice, a fast Leap Slammer can attack 2-3 times as well. At best, Lightning Warp is a utility spell. But because of its delay, its utility is extremely limited. Leap Slam can do everything LW does, but better. Because you're a developer, you might have access to builds which make LW viable, but I don't see how it's possible. I'd love to be proven wrong though. LW could be potentially an amazingly fun skill to bulid around - I'm having a blast with Leap Slam - but right now it just seems like a waste of effort. My main question though, stems from what role each skill is supposed to be. If Leap Slam can cost less mana (even with tons of supports), be more spammable, and (most likely) deal more damage - while doing everything LW does but better - why can't LW be more like LS? Lightning Warp, when used offensively, is going to put your character in harm's way. It means you will need to build decently tanky. That alone means it deserves a little more good will than maybe it's getting right now. My Keystone Ideas: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/744282 Last edited by anubite#0701 on Oct 2, 2012, 10:33:57 PM
|
|
