Active Skill combinations. (The horadric cube for POE)

I made a feed back thread regarding redundant active skill gems (elemental strike, lighting attack, puncture, viper strike, infernal blow etc) being moved to the list of support gems therefore allowing more variety in type of attacks. Discussing this further led to, what I think, is an evolution of the combat skills (making it more explosive and entertaining). I felt this idea could use its own page so the devs can lend an eye to it. The following is a cut and paste from another thread.

Most of the redundant active skills are really nothing but normal attacks with an extra stat. Which, to me, makes the existing variety of active skills feels more limited than that what is available. There was another suggestion that was formulating in my head last night and your reply seems like it MAY be useful modification:

I was thinking the support gems can be further divided into 2 separate categories. Perhaps a class of support gems that can either effect your default base attack with additional properties if inserted in an unlinked socket. They can also be linked to skill like a regular support gem as well. The other category would just be your regular suport gem that can only applied to active skill gems (for eg: Item Rarity and Item quantity would still be same.) also to that end these limited support gems will also have greater % of effects as opposed to the multi-support gems.

The other idea I had was the ability to actually combine the two skills gems via linked sockets on an item. Eg:

NOTE: Linking 2 skills will reduce the bonus dmg and stat effects of each compared to their individual effects.

Leap Slam + Lighting strike = On landing you let out a AOE knockback with lighting projectiles spreading and damaging enemies all around.

Cleave + puncture = a wide arc attack that damages multiple enemies and causes them to bleed.

Flickr + Whirling Blades = teleporting behind enemies and attack which extends into whirling blades (frenzy charges can by pass CD. Assuming they changed the CD ratio to 2:1 charge for flickr them combining the two skills will make the ration 1:1)

Ice spear + Raise Dead = Zombies that can hurl ice bolts with chance to freeze.

Raise Dead + Raise Skeles = Undead Necro summoner.

Warlords mark + Elemental attack = all enemies effected will have take additional random elemental damage for duration of curse.

Whirling Blades + Infernal Blow = enemies effected will have a chace to blow up and do smaller aoe damage on death as you pass through.

Whirling Blades + lighting strike = a lighting infused attack dash which releases projectiles at end of reaching destination.

Warlords mark + Wrath = combination of two curses at the same time.

Rejuv Totem + Raise Dead = Totem that can raise and heal zombies.

Ice spear + fireball = enemies freezing and burning in place (can add a new death animation of melting pools of burning flesh. Chance to ignite support gem could improve burning effects)

Phase Run + any other skill = you can perform several attacks and still remain in phase form. Each kill can increase phase time by 1 sec.

DO YOU SEE THE APPLICATIONS!!!!

ofcourse there are things to be worked out such as manacost of linking two skills (I would say the average of the two skills cost value.... that is why I am not a game dev..)

Also not all skills can be combined and there should be a little hint in the game but discovering the different effects and skills will definitely add more to the skill set and allow players to add more thought and more options to their play style. you can now have elemental builds with distinction.

Flicker is tricky but messing with CD just makes the skill less valueable as a skill of its own. I was customizing my duelist around flickr strike and the current settings just don't allow for much evasive maneuver (if you use it enough you can get used to the disorienting effects) unless you use warlords wrath or frenzy.

On a side note: would it be possible to allow Frenzy CD bypass to make use of endurance charges as well?
"How would you like it if I snuck into your country and did this job over there... and not cash in any of your friggin checks?!! You WONT!! Because you will be right here!!" - Master Shake.
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Just so you folks don't think I like to stroke my own tail (just a little maybe) here are some criticisms and positives.

"
herflik wrote:
@UP

Well it would look neat in game, the main problem why it isnt like that is probably the time and cost of adding something like that.

Some combinations would create totaly new skill, so you would need to have many new skill animations created with might cost alot of money.
Then you need to program all possible combinations with might result in alot of new skills, unless you limit it only to few.
At least i think its the main problem, maybe in future when POE will become popular and make lot of cash it will be possible to add.


"
Zakaluka wrote:
As for elemental hit, it can be extremely strong in the right context. Read: used with a weapon that has 1.6 or better base APS. This is where elemental hit's flat damage bonus accounts for the highest percent of your DPS.

Just kind of a meta distinction. The conversion skills have strengths of their own, but a flat dmg boost shines in its own specific niche.

Just a thought - 1.7 base aps rapier, 4x frenzy flicker, elemental hit as your main single target focus fire ability. Frenzy to maintain stacks, flicker for mobility, but in this context elem-hit should do much more DPS than each flicker.

Note that elemental hit's damage tooltip is a bit wonky, you have to do some napkin math to figure it for yourself.


"
alshara wrote:
There's nothing to say that they can't implement a support attack gem. Meaning a gem that can be used as an attack and had support option that doesn't affect it and same named. Example:

Combustion (blue):

A skill that deals x-y fire dmg and causes burn for z seconds. Support function increases fire and burn dmg by n amount. The support does not work with Combustion.

Apply Poison (green):
Causes weapon to deal x-y chaos dmg over z secs. Support function: adds x-1 to y-3 chaos dmg over z-1 secs to attack skills. Support function does not work with Poison.

With the above examples, take Elemental Hit, Combustion, and Apply Poison onto a three slot weapon. Slot them all on the same weapon and on weapon hit it will get a bonus to the fire dmg done by Elemental Hit along with an extra chaos dmg and a dot. Casting combustion will cause chaos dmg and a dot, on top of burning.

This could satisfy OP's desire while not totally rewriting the current system to meet players expectations of what the OP dreams. The wording of the self exclusion could be written differently, but I think it gets the idea across. These example would need to be worked, but it's a frame work of an idea that GGG either thought of before and are planning on them, or can take the idea and run with it.


"
Charan wrote:
"
alshara wrote:
There's nothing to say that they can't implement a support attack gem. Meaning a gem that can be used as an attack and had support option that doesn't affect it and same named. Example:

Combustion (blue):

A skill that deals x-y fire dmg and causes burn for z seconds. Support function increases fire and burn dmg by n amount. The support does not work with Combustion.

Apply Poison (green):
Causes weapon to deal x-y chaos dmg over z secs. Support function: adds x-1 to y-3 chaos dmg over z-1 secs to attack skills. Support function does not work with Poison.

With the above examples, take Elemental Hit, Combustion, and Apply Poison onto a three slot weapon. Slot them all on the same weapon and on weapon hit it will get a bonus to the fire dmg done by Elemental Hit along with an extra chaos dmg and a dot. Casting combustion will cause chaos dmg and a dot, on top of burning.

This could satisfy OP's desire while not totally rewriting the current system to meet players expectations of what the OP dreams. The wording of the self exclusion could be written differently, but I think it gets the idea across. These example would need to be worked, but it's a frame work of an idea that GGG either thought of before and are planning on them, or can take the idea and run with it.


The idea of active gems that also support is interesting but could very easily leave the door open to overpowered builds aplenty.

"How would you like it if I snuck into your country and did this job over there... and not cash in any of your friggin checks?!! You WONT!! Because you will be right here!!" - Master Shake.
"
Fartfinder wrote:
Also to touch upon the combining skill gem animations. For the most part there wont be any external or new animation process required for the virtual aspect of combining 2 skill gems.


Cleave + puncture would be very simple as you just use the normal cleave animation and the associated bleeding effect with puncture.

Leap Slam + lightning strike is pretty much chaining two animation in sequence.

Raise dead + raise skeles would result in utilizing the existing necromancer model and animation in the game already. If anything, a slight change in color to indicate it is undead.

Since majority of the animations already exists this would actually be a fairly inexpensive but possibly a long process (balance issues are bound rise up).

Also yes balancing issues will cause certain builds to be totally op until tweaks are made over time. But the idea is to make your character feel as bad-ass as possible and also give players incentive to discover different skill combinations to fit their play style. When looking through other game forums POE is often mentioned with a "but" affixed to almost every praise. And the negatives generally pertain to the blandness of combat. I believe this will "spice" up the variety. Of-course this is entirely up to the devs to consider or not.
"How would you like it if I snuck into your country and did this job over there... and not cash in any of your friggin checks?!! You WONT!! Because you will be right here!!" - Master Shake.
To take this idea a step further, there can be a mechanism of sorts introduced into the game. This device will actually allow you to combine 2 skill gems into one one powerful skill gem (the average between the level of the two active skill gems will be the new level for this gem) permanently. The end result will be unique gems with the properties posted in the top post.

This is will also boost trading as not everyone would like to sacrifice their high level skill gems for a medium level combination gem. And since there is a random probability to acquire the type of gems with in the game, no one will be permanently lose all their ability.

The problems that I see with this mechanism is the tweaking
of certain active skill dependent on weapon types. The mana cost, the effectiveness of combined skill in combat etc.

Perhaps the inclusion of weapon type restriction allows for variety in types of build (can't every type of skill available to all classes now can we) this makes it a little more time consuming process to figure out what combinations will and won't be used.

Having more time to think, there are still some restrictions based on weapons. For eg: you can't use whirling blades without one handed sword or claws. If two gems with weapons restrictions are applied to them are combined what would be the end result? For this reason I once again propose the idea of changing some of the redundant skill gems to support gems (namely the ones that are just a variation of a normal attack with an extra effect). That way majority of the combination can be brought about using support and skill gems. Active skill can also be combined for unique effects but they must fulfill certain requirements prior to being combined: 1) You can only combine a weapon restricted skill gem with a non weapon restrictive skill gem. In this case the restricted gem will determine the restriction of the new skill gem. 2)You cannot combine two support gem (would render the linking sockets useless). 3) You can combine 2 non wepon restrictive gems. 4) You cannot combine more than two gems at once.

There will always be players that may have been hasty in their choice of combination and would want to get their original kill gems back. For this purpose a player can use the "horadric cube" mechanism and place the combines skill gem in question along with an orb of regrets to get back the original gems (note: There is a certain risk in using this other than the highly valued orb of regrets; This mechanism will NOT restore your parent gems to their original level prior to the combination. They will both instead have the same level as the combined gem.)

It also occurs to me that averaging the level values has an exploitable issue to it. Averaging works fine for uneven levels of gems combined but for two gesm of the same level will always yield a combo skill gem of the same level and vice versa for respecs. This limitation will have to be explored further.


The benefits of this mechanism is obvious really. This introduces a small gambling system (other than the ones placed with enchanting weapons) as well another area of exploration and discovery (obviously, the devs and those who frequent the forums will have an edge). This will further add to the appeal of the games depth and complexity as well as induce a gambling addiction without actual money involved. This will also ensure longevity of the game (as the combinations are vast and varied) which will allow players to attain a sense of empowerment.

The other side of the coin is to allow enemies and minions to have access to some of these skills as well. Elite packs, champions and quest bosses can benefit from this greatly while giving players some added challenge (and also a demonstration of a gem skill combination the he/she has not yet discovered).

- To the Devs and fellow readers:
It seems my ideas are all over the place. I apologize I am more or less typing it down as it comes to me. This is an idea that has not been entirely thought out yet. For that end I would love criticisms, further explorations, suggestions and other input from the existing community. I will admit math and calculations are not my strong points and there are definitely areas that I have blatantly ignored. There are a lot of programming savvy people on board here and I would love your input. This game definitely restored a modicum of hope in to this resigned old gamer's heart (D3 refugee) and for that I want to see this game thrive and restore faith in other disheartened D3 refugees across. Thank you in advance.

I will be listing out possible skill combinations and choices in a bit. Need food. Please add in your thoughts for different combinations as well (refer to the first post to get an idea of where this is going)I will frequently collect the combinations and list them in a fresh post. Thank you in advance.

"How would you like it if I snuck into your country and did this job over there... and not cash in any of your friggin checks?!! You WONT!! Because you will be right here!!" - Master Shake.
Last edited by Fartfinder#0474 on Jul 25, 2012, 11:21:17 PM
I'll be posting in this thread than in the other one.

The only issue with the combining of gem via vendor is the amount of time it'll take to program and work through all the possible permutations. The combining of gems would have to be in some form of an expansion as I feel it's a little late in this development cycle for it.

Restrictions based around weapon I feel should not be a concern, since, some skills are already restricted and possibly be self written. When I say self written, if we take the combine two gems through vendor, the restrictions on both parents are added to the child gem, with weapon dependent skill not combining. So you can't have an Axe based skill that can be be used with a dagger.

To solve the level issue, make all combined gems start at level 1, with total quality boosting up the starting level. Example, two quality 20 gems (total quality of 40%) will grant a gem that starts at lvl5-10 or whatever. I mean, we find gems all the time that start at level 1, so what's the harm in making the vendor combo gems at level 1? Especially if they free up a socket?

I still stand by my attacking support, or supporting attack gems, or whatever they will be called, as a short term bridge between the two ideas. The description will have to explicitly state something along the lines of "Attacking Support Gems do not affect themselves," or "The support aspect of this gem does not apply to the gem itself," or something like that to help limit the amount of in game chat asking questions about this. I say limit, cause as much as there are answers on the forums, we all know how often the answer of "can i socket two support gems and stack the bonus?"

Heh, just thought of one that would be extremely wicked/broken/op:

Cascade (green)
Attack: Fires an arrow for weapon dmg that when it hits, it splits into X+2 arrows that deal Y% of weapon dmg. (The spilt only happens once.) Bow restricted.
Support: Porjectiles that impact a foe split into X+1 projectiles that deal Y% of the skill dmg for an additional Z% mana.

Socket this gem with Lesser or Greater Projectile and Ice Spear/Fire Ball...
Ouch! That sounds like almost like a Demon Hunter balance issue from Diablo 3 lol. Maybe an adoption of the Lighting strike projectile reduction by 10% per split would help reduce the potential op. The same would apply to any support gem added on to?

Also I have no delusions in my mind about this system being added on instantly. Its a process that will take time but its eventual addition will open up possibilities. Also this idea is still, as I have mentioned before, premature and needs further fleshing out.

Also I think it may be a lot faster process to switch some of the listed active skill gems in the "Redundant Active Skill Gem" post to support gem status which will still allow a similar function to exist which can be slowly build upon. A simple mix and match of skill and support gems can also provide the same satisfaction and depth as this complex process.
"How would you like it if I snuck into your country and did this job over there... and not cash in any of your friggin checks?!! You WONT!! Because you will be right here!!" - Master Shake.
Last edited by Fartfinder#0474 on Jul 26, 2012, 12:57:54 AM
I really like the idea. I can imagine to combine vendor skill gems into high lvl skill gems with combined effects.
But I don't like the timing of your idea. And thats why:

If you implement a system, where you can get new skill gems by combining them (or new combined effects by linking them rather than combinding them), the new effects you will get are limited.

E.g. if you combine Ice Spear with Frost Nova, you eigher get a Missle that will cast a frost nova on its point of impact, or a Nova, that shoots Missles out in every direction.

You wouldn't add a new effect to the game, lets say, a frog that fungles Enemies with its tounge and electrifies them.

Since afaik the game developers still want to add new skill gems, i'd rather see them do that at the moment, with the whole variety of ideas you could have for new skills, than limiting their thoughts by thinking of combined effects.

Once the developers are satisfied with the amount of gems, your idea of adding value to them by creating new combined effects would be a great addition to the game, though.
Thinking about the supporting attack gems even more so (nothing else to do while waiting around...) both sides do not have to be positive. Having the support part of the gem "hinder" in some way could be useful for balancing and thinking twice about using. Like the support side could say something like "support gems give 50% of their bonuses," or better worded "support gems are only half effectiive," or "all gem mana cost are doubled."

Double is a bit harsh, but you get the idea. Makes people think about how to socket and if the cost is worth having.

Another one is an attack grants a frenzy, endurance, power charge to the target with the support side modifying the attack skill linked to it a bonus to dmg, status effects, etc.

Man, these bad boys could be all sorts of fun and make some creative builds!
"
Prinegon wrote:
I really like the idea. I can imagine to combine vendor skill gems into high lvl skill gems with combined effects.
But I don't like the timing of your idea. And thats why:

If you implement a system, where you can get new skill gems by combining them (or new combined effects by linking them rather than combinding them), the new effects you will get are limited.

E.g. if you combine Ice Spear with Frost Nova, you eigher get a Missle that will cast a frost nova on its point of impact, or a Nova, that shoots Missles out in every direction.

You wouldn't add a new effect to the game, lets say, a frog that fungles Enemies with its tounge and electrifies them.

Since afaik the game developers still want to add new skill gems, i'd rather see them do that at the moment, with the whole variety of ideas you could have for new skills, than limiting their thoughts by thinking of combined effects.

Once the developers are satisfied with the amount of gems, your idea of adding value to them by creating new combined effects would be a great addition to the game, though.


No doubt if this idea is considered it will take a little time. I am aware that at this point (with the OB around the corner) adding in or changing content will set things back. Like I keep saying in the other thread this is a concept that needs fleshing out. So... I am not even sure what we have here is enough to go on... not yet.

I haven't gotten too far into the game. So there are plenty of skill and support gems I have yet to get. But looking from the current selection some, as I mentioned earlier, feel very redundant and limited. For eg: Puncture can be a useful skill but its limited by 1) Being active skill of its own (space on the action bar) 2) Not effective at all when fighting groups or mobs (which in this game is a staple).

So the proposed idea, IN ANOTHER THREAD (Redundant Skill Gems), was to simply switch the skill from active to support status (this is small work considering the main idea proposed in this thread) allowing it to be equipped with other more useful existing skills and actually giving more tactical options. Eg: Cleave + Puncture: Damage and bleed multiple enemies. It seems there are more skills like this which have potential but not much thought put in beyond the basic application making it pointless.

There are a few support gems which seem baffling as well regarding the extra physical damage on full health gem but I may have to make another thread for that.
"How would you like it if I snuck into your country and did this job over there... and not cash in any of your friggin checks?!! You WONT!! Because you will be right here!!" - Master Shake.
Last edited by Fartfinder#0474 on Jul 26, 2012, 2:32:33 PM
Day off today so I figure I can spend some time in front of the screen. So with nothing to watch on netflix and no desire to play games (I am a midnight gamer) I had some time to mull over and list out the possible applications

NOTE: As I said before I have not come across every skill gem to be had so the lists will most likely expand. As I said before any input would be helpful.


Leap Slam + Lighting strike = On landing you let out a AOE knockback with lighting projectiles spreading and damaging enemies all around.

Cleave + puncture = a wide arc attack that damages multiple enemies and causes them to bleed.

Flickr + Whirling Blades = Charge to target and then flcker. CD can be bypassed with frenzy charges (1:1).

Ice spear + Raise Dead = Zombies that can hurl ice bolts with chance to freeze.

Raise Dead + Raise Skeles = Undead Necro summoner.

Warlords mark + Elemental attack = all enemies effected will take additional random elemental damage for duration of curse.

Whirling Blades + Infernal Blow = enemies effected will have a chance to blow up and do smaller aoe damage on death as you pass through.

Whirling Blades + lighting strike = a lighting infused attack dash which releases projectiles at end of reaching destination.

Warlords mark + Wrath = combination of two curses at the same time.

Rejuv Totem + Raise Dead = Totem that can raise and heal zombies (amount of skeletons raise is based on the player's stat - 1. Minion dps/armor will be weaker than then the player summoning.)

Ice spear + fireball = target shattering will cause smaller 2 smaller fireballs to explode out and dart in either direction.

Phase Run + any other skill = you can perform several attacks and still remain in phase form. Each kill can increase phase time by 1 sec.

Frenzy + double strike = "Flurry". blurr of strikes that speed up with frenzy charges. Perfect for dual wielders and shadow classes. Can be used with 2 handed weapons as well.

Double Strike + Ground Slam = Pretty obvious. Will require a CD.

Ice Nove + Ice Spear = Missle that will cast a frost nova on its point of impact. (Thanks to Prinegon)

Ice Spear + Arrow Split = Same effect as using a bow but with ice spear. Bypasses weapon requirement.

Flicker + Leap Slam = Flicker with AOE attack (can bypass CD with frenzy charges)

Shield charge + Whirling Blades = Knock back/stun/crit on hit.

Shield charge + flicker = Charge to target and then use flicker to strike next target.

Poison arrow + conversion trap = "Plague" = Crit attack causes enemy to attack allies and explode into a poisonus explosion that can convert and attack other allies and explode for minor poison damage and no conversion. (CD required)




"How would you like it if I snuck into your country and did this job over there... and not cash in any of your friggin checks?!! You WONT!! Because you will be right here!!" - Master Shake.

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