The inconsistency between Xbows / grenades and bows / flask skills

Heya all

I'm here to voice an opinion I have with the crossbow in poe2, which in my opinion kinda drew the short stick in the balancing department.

The fuse and reload mechanics are meant to make Xbow feel a bit slower, or even "clunkyier" in my opinion. I'm guessing that the reason behind was "Well if grenades have no fuse, they might as well be flask skills".

fair enough, but if I can only have 3-5 grenades stacks with cooldowns or ammo clips for bolts that have to be reloaded (can't reload while rolling btw very annoying), why do they in addition do less damage than bows?

I'm not even asking for more damage than bow, but at least make the Xbow somewhat competitive.

If we can't spamm like flasks and bow skills and can't move around and shot as easy as them, at least make them pack a bit more punch.

Also make quivers for crossbows o_o Bows have two handed values and quiver for massive increases, why not crossbows.

PS: Don't read this as nerf bows / flask, read this a show crossbow some love

Thanks guys good day.

Yea i was wondering that too , played around with xbows and was waiting of some kinda quiver/ammo pouch to drop ?
Bow's do the same dmg and are 2h too so why do xbow users left out on a item slot ?

Let us dual wield crossbows

Crossbows DO deal more damage.

1. Crossbows have higher attack speed and higher upper base damage across the board (relevant for some mechanics). On average, a crossbow base has 33% higher DPS than an equivalent bow base.

- Example:
Highest dps bow base: Expert Zealot Bow (84 pdps)
Highest dps crossbow base: Expert Forlorn Crossbow (112 pdps)

Weapon modifiers are exactly the same, and these differences propagate across gear levels.

2. Crossbow skills have higher numbers and it is not even close

- Examples, lvl18 skill gems:
Lightning Arrow; 240% weapon damage, 90% attack speed
Lightning Rod; 57% weapon damage
Magnetic Salvo; 113%+226% weapon damage, 50% attack speed

Galvanic Shards; 25%+148% weapon damage; 200% attack speed
Shockburst Rounds; 37%+148% weapon damage; 450% attack speed
Explosive Shot; 396% weapon damage, 70% attack speed

3. Damage on the tree is available in comparable amounts.

Crossbows generally deal more damage, and this advantage is bought with an additional investment burden into Reload Speed, and - more importantly - weaker range and coverage compared to bows.

You do have a valid point with archers having access to Quivers. On min-maxed builds, with the inclusion of Jewels and especially Widowhail, bows do draw ahead of crossbows. But on low to mid levels of gear, they do not.

oooo i get to repost my findings regarding crossbows as weapons!


Thesis: The Crossbow, as a weapon, is poorly designed and needs a rework/tweaks.

About me: Have a lvl 73 gemling merc w/ a lvl 17 ranger I made when my merc was in the 50s. I completed the compaign in 75 hours and was lvl 65 when I finally did. The TLDR for why it took me so long was crap loot drops/loot slamming, but this is not what I am posting about.

The Setup: I decided to roll a Ranger (currently 17) after getting frustrated enough w/ my merc to drop the game for a few days. I eventually went back to my merc but I kept coming up w/ questions as to why ranger felt so good while merc felt so bad. I did some thinking and comparisons and would like to present my findings.

Back to Basics: I was fortunate enough to get a bow and xbow base at the same level/ilvl for comparison, so I immediately busted out my spreadsheet and got to work. This is what I found:

Adv. Composite Bow: 36 - 61 physical damage, ilvl 51, req 117 Dex
Adv. Varnished Xbow: 19 - 78 physical damage, ilvl 51, req 65 str/65 dex

When I looked at the stats side by side, something seemed off, so I dug a little deeper and this is what I found:
For the BOW, the minimum damage value is 59% of the maximum damage value.
For the XBOW, the minimum damage value is 24.36% of the maximum damage value.
While the XBOW has a higher maximum damage, it is only 21.79% higher than the BOW
The XBOW is a 2H weapon, while the BOW is 1H. This allows the BOW user to equip a quiver for even more stats.
The BOW requires LESS stat points than the XBOW (117 vs 130, or 2/3 stat nodes)

Given the information above, the only thing the XBOW has going for it is the skills it comes with. A wider damage range introduces more uncertainty into combat so even if the max damage is higher, you're less likely to hit it consistently and skill damage is based off of your hit damage anyway.

Playing Around: I've played merc for at least 50 hours and if I was to sum up the class in one word it would be "clunk". The Xbow ammo skills are clunky and fiddly to use (grenades are fairly straight forward; this may explain the popularity of grenade builds). Ranger flows much better because when you push the hotkey, the skill goes off. This is not always the case for merc:
To use an ammo skill:
Hit hotkey to switch ammo
(reload/switch) animation occurs
IF ammo is at zero, hit hotkey again
IF ammo is NOT zero, left click to fire

now lets compare to ranger:
Hit hotkey to do skill

This doesnt even take into account the clip not being full so you go to do the skill and have to reload while getting your face gnawed on, or if you're holding down the left mouse button it reloads but doesn't fire so you wonder why you're not firing, or even the worst case scenario of dodgerolling while trying to reload; good luck with that one!

One last point I noticed is that the Crossbow is the ONLY weapon that has a reload timer. In this case we can get double screwed by reload AND skill speed.

Conclusion: The very mechanics surrounding the xbow are what is holding it back; it does not have enough advantages to offset its disadvantages. One of these needs to change - it either needs to become a more powerful but janky weapon w/ better scaling skills, or it and its skills stay as is while the mechanics get smoothed out. Some options here include but are not limited to (nor do I suggest doing all of these as that may go too far)
Bringing the minimum damage up (definitely to at least 45% of max!)
Increasing the maximum damage (maybe, but not too much; 5 to 10 percent or so)
Increasing the number of 'effects' on 2h weapons (6 for 1h, 8 for 2h; this could be a very interesting change across the board)
Buffing the damage% on xbow skills (an idea, but no recommendations or examples)

If you've made it to the end of this post, I thank you for taking the time to read it even if you don't agree with my conclusion.

TLDR: Crossbows are poorly designed from both a stats and game mechanic perspective. It needs to be fixed.

You say you played merc for 50 hours, so you should know it auto reloads and this is NOT the case.

"

Ranger flows much better because when you push the hotkey, the skill goes off. This is not always the case for merc:
To use an ammo skill:
Hit hotkey to switch ammo
(reload/switch) animation occurs
IF ammo is at zero, hit hotkey again
IF ammo is NOT zero, left click to fire

Stats as such don't seem to be a problem, it's easier to stack 2 lower, than one bigger in general, and str is like the only thing worth stacking in this game, except for howa builds.

"

it either needs to become a more powerful but janky weapon w/ better scaling skills, or it and its skills stay as is while the mechanics get smoothed out.

Making it jankier would not solve it... Just look at state of 2-handers in general , last poe1 league was pretty much the only one, where the most meta optimized build is actually 2hander (msoz), and even then, ppl hate it.


I honestly think, that merc gameplay is actually the vision(tm) they balance other stuff around, so if anything, ggg will read this as "bows too stronk, need nerf" rather than "bow slow and unfun, buff plz" . It would not be the 1st time this happens, and players get what they ask for (not what they think they are asking).

"

AcidFrizzy#2252 wrote:

You say you played merc for 50 hours, so you should know it auto reloads and this is NOT the case.

"

Ranger flows much better because when you push the hotkey, the skill goes off. This is not always the case for merc:
To use an ammo skill:
Hit hotkey to switch ammo
(reload/switch) animation occurs
IF ammo is at zero, hit hotkey again
IF ammo is NOT zero, left click to fire

Stats as such don't seem to be a problem, it's easier to stack 2 lower, than one bigger in general, and str is like the only thing worth stacking in this game, except for howa builds.

"

it either needs to become a more powerful but janky weapon w/ better scaling skills, or it and its skills stay as is while the mechanics get smoothed out.

Making it jankier would not solve it... Just look at state of 2-handers in general , last poe1 league was pretty much the only one, where the most meta optimized build is actually 2hander (msoz), and even then, ppl hate it.


I honestly think, that merc gameplay is actually the vision(tm) they balance other stuff around, so if anything, ggg will read this as "bows too stronk, need nerf" rather than "bow slow and unfun, buff plz" . It would not be the 1st time this happens, and players get what they ask for (not what they think they are asking).

Played a WitchHunter for about 140h until I made a monk and was 2x stronger in 25h.
About the realoding, it sure should always reload but do not do it from time to time if you are moving/dodging/lack mana/whatever the reason.

If you hold the fire button it also not always keep shooting.

It looked like a cool concept but ended up been bad mechanics all around as you simple keep questioning yourself when your character is not responding as expected:
Is the game?
Is my peripherals?
Why is it happening?????