Feedback on the core progression system in POE2, the Passive Skill Tree and Gems.

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wanttofly88#3933 wrote:

Basically, I want to talk about how fun it is to level up a new character and play with it, focusing on two main problems: the passive skill tree and the gem system.

Let's try to define the progression system from POE1. I'll give you an example of a problem you want to solve and how you solve it in POE1. Problem: You die a lot. Solution: You look through your options and decide to run the Grace aura. To run it, you need to change your skill tree to get nodes that let you run more auras. You solve it with creative pathing and unique jewels. Now you have a new problem: you don't have enough mana, and you go to the start of the problem-solution loop.

Essentially, you are presented with problems, and you are tasked with solving them using the following tools:

1 Skill Tree.

2 Gems.

3 Unique Items.

4 Items with specific mods (bought or crafted)

So what is the progression system in POE1? Basically, it's a puzzle. It's practically infinite; it becomes more complex the more powerful you want to get, and every time you try a new build, you are presented with a new puzzle.

And it's incredibly addicting.

Now I want to mention that it's not that big of a problem if you're not interested in replayability or prefer to stick to build guides. That's completely ok, but for some of us it's a big deal, and that's why I want to talk about it.

I'll also focus on points 1 and 2 from the list above; there are enough threads about loot and lack of crafting in POE2.

So, at the very heart of this puzzle lies the Passive Skill Tree. The Skill Tree is the first place you go to when you are presented with a problem. You are being stunlocked—skill tree; need more life to prevent oneshots—skill tree. Your resistances are bad—skill tree. Etc.

The skill tree defines your build in POE. It evolves, becoming more complex and refined as you play or experiment with new mechanics.

Now does the skill tree in POE2 fit to be the heart of our progression? Sadly, it does not. It simply lacks depth. Most of the nodes are gone. The skill tree has damage, your primary defense mechanic, and an additional mechanic, depending on where you started (mana, accuracy, ailments, etc.). You have little to no choice in what you want to level up. Basically, the puzzle is already solved; just follow the path that is presented to you.

So what is the skill tree in POE2? It's a premade build. You are presented with a couple of simple choices, but that's it. Just follow the path; you can't go wrong here. It's simple, one-dimensional, and uninspiring.

Now, let's see what problems it creates.

- POE2 isn't any simpler than POE1; you are presented with the same problems. The main solution, however, is gone. The lack of control. The game can feel too hard or unfair, and you have no tools to fix it.

- The lack of involvement. I can't brag about beating a boss when everyone else is playing the same build. This achievement isn't purely mine; the game was designed in this way.

- The lack of replayability. Again, the puzzle is already solved; I am not compelled to repeat it again.

How do we solve these problems? Sadly, I don't see a simple way, except for redesigning the whole tree. The skill tree from POE1 is a great reference; it took a long time to perfect, and it shouldn't be thrown away. The idea to make it simpler for new players, however, is good. The readability is also great. But, instead of limiting choices, we can create a system with recommended nodes. Or use something similar to Power Nodes from Path of Building. It's an incredible tool to let you know what nodes you should be looking at to make your character more powerful.

Gems.

Now, let me give you another example from POE1. You have a problem: you get stunned a lot. You can't find an appropriate solution in the skill tree, so you look at your gems. You come up with a utility link that, every time you get stunned, triggers a weak spell with a knockback effect. The solution is simple. You feel smart and more attached to your character.

Now let's look at the Gems system in POE2: It's purely offensive. The utility skills are gone. Skills are now split between weapons, and 80% of skills are unavailable to you. You can use multiple active skills but only one unique support gem on your character. Auras, summons, and meta skills cost spirit now.

Let's look at specific changes:

- Lack of utility skills—As with the skill tree, it limits our solutions to problems. Basically, the only problem gems try to solve now is how to kill things faster. The problems are there. The solution is gone. Simply give us more utility skills and limit the number of slots, if necessary.

- Skills being split between weapons. This approach helps with readability but limits both players and developers in what they can use. To solve this problem we can keep the current system but make most skills not exclusive to weapons. Some skills can be tied to your weapon; others are purely recommended. For example, the Flame Wall can be offered to casters and mercenaries as a recommended skill. Others, like utility skills or auras, can be recommended with many weapons at once. This allows us to have universally useful skills that are not exclusive to certain weapons and gives more freedom to players and developers alike.

- One unique support gem per character. Now, the idea of having multiple active skills is great. This idea, however, is instantly killed by the fact that only one active skill will get all the best support gems. The other active skills will be rarely used or not used at all. The solution is simple: this limitation should go; it doesn't add anything to the game. Balancing support gems will also help, so we are compelled to use all of them, not just a select few. If there is still a need to limit players with support gems, we can add quality to them. Honestly, I'm for this change. Support gems need more love, they are too boring now.

- Spirit. The idea is good, but the fact that we need to choose between meta skills, auras, and summons is not. Meta skills should not be considered purely offensive features, they are often used for quality of life or as creative solutions to specific problems. Like pushing away enemies when you get stunned or casting a power sigil under your legs every 8 seconds. It's like a perk of your character; it shouldn't cost anything except for a skill slot. Or at least it should be significantly cheaper. We need to be able to customize our characters in this way. The skills like cast on crit could be balanced in another way if they need balancing. And please, add spirit to the skill tree; it will give us more choices in how we want to develop our characters.

Bonus: Attributes.

Attributes have been changed; now we can choose what attribute to level up. It looks good, but to counteract this, requirements for gear and skills are kind of insane now. Basically, it's an additional limitation to force us to use only specific types of gear and specific skills. Honestly, attributes from POE1 worked better. Yes, they were frustrating at times, but at least we had more freedom with gems and gear to use. I don't like being forced to wear the same dress and using only an energy shield as my only defensive option.

Conclusion:

I do understand that the game is in early access. Some limitations are necessary; the game would be impossible to balance if we had the same amount of builds as in POE1. However, if that's the case, having a notice from the developers would be nice. Some decisions feel intended to promote the simplicity of the game. But paying for simplicity with depth, customization, and replayability is not worth it in my opinion. There should be another way to make the game more clear. I also understand that many players will disagree with me; I'm purely expressing my feelings and things I heard from friends and some streamers I watched. The game itself is incredible, and I do think that developers know what they are doing. But, since we're supposed to give feedback, I feel it's necessary to express my worries about some core systems before it's too late, especially since I don't see many people talking about them.

Thank you if you read all of it. It's the biggest feedback I ever gave to a game. And thank you, GGG, for making this game. It is, in fact, an incredible game.