Mace is bad, but attack speed isn't the problem

I've always been in favor of diversity in playstyle.
There are fast classes and slow classes, thats fine.
Maces represent the class fantasy of a slow, bulking, titanic mass of muscles, he takes pain and dishes out pain, he doesn't dance around quickly, but each step breaks the ground.
I don't want to make Maces fast, I want Maces to be slow & good.

The real problems with Maces, I think, there are 2:
1- the problem with risk & reward of Mace skills ( a.k.a the tragic defensive ability of the class)
2- the problem with the endgame meta which is the anti-thesis of a slow playstyle.


1: Risk & Reward

Slow is a huge downside, yet the upside isn't balanced (if it even exist at all)
- It makes no sense that the supposed "slow, close ranged tank" of the game has the worst defensive ability. Everysingle defensive option in the game( Conversion, Evasion, ES...etc) is far superior to the tragically bad armour/hp build.
- There should be stun/freeze/slow protection whenever you use a mace skill (especially ones with fixed +attack time). Perhaps not on the start of the skill (so that the skill isn't too "free") but at least on the 2nd half of the animation.
- On-ground effects. So you make a class thats supposed to come close, take risk, get personal. And then you have these ground effects/aura that freeze/slow/drain anything that come close. Does that make sense? Sure I can summon hammer from a distance but thats not why I play Maces.
- The only tradeoff is the big AoE, but other classes also have big AoE with no downsides, so is this a good trade at all?


2: Endgame Meta

Not much to say here, everybody knows it, endgame is 1-button map zooming, kill them before they kill (or even see) you, and that goes against Mace's entire concept of existence.
Now, Mace clear speed isn't actually all that bad, whether it be Mace strike-Cultist hammer or Herald-Stampede, both are quite effective.
Just make sure to chug on those flasks everytime you run into a pack & pray to god you don't get one shotted in the middle of HoTG/Sunder.

I have to wonder, if the solution to Maces is the same as every other classes, to kill mobs faster than they can reach you, then what was the point of this weapon to begin with?

I maybe crazy here, but doesn't it feel like every class play the same in end-game?

i was severely disappointed with titan, i am working on gear to play it again. Defiance of destiny and svalin. until i find svalin though im not even trying again.

Agree with the OP analysis. My solutions might differ.. but I agree that it is dumb that ARMOR is by far the weakest defense form.

ARMOR should apply to other forms of damage .. then and only then we could have armored melee to be decent. The warrior MUST be the tankiest of all forms of gameplay if it is to compensate its speed and need to get close.

That is basic game design.

There are way more problems with it, just to name the few biggest:

- Very large amount of pretty obvious bugs
- Body block
- Forced movement
- Can't move while attacking
- Stun, leech, etc. don't work due to thresholds (even perfect gear can't use them)
- Can't solve mana (if you use life tap or blood magic its even worse)
- Cooldown cancellation
- Action speed modifiers don't apply correctly
- Higher base types are often downgrades
- Dexterity is too expensive
- Other weapon types are missing

Vehemently disagree, being rooted in place for "meh" payoffs, 2 second wind ups, 6 second Earth Quakes, are a BIG part of the problem. There's a large difference btween "big slower hits" and "this is just dumb and doesn't even have enough payoff"

Spells being able to be cast while moving is also a big part of the problem.

Agree with the bits about defenses and "the payoff" not being worth it.

In regards to speed Stampede and Mace strike can one button clear entire screens. They are just completely removing the "AOE slam" design space and taking it over for themselves. Why in the world would anyone EQ when they can just explode a screen with a auto attack?

When they get nerfed Shield charge with some cooldown reduction will step right in tom the same place as Stampede.

Then people will use Molten Blast and HoA

Meanwhile all the intended AOE clearing skills like Sunder and EQ are hamstrung by the juice not being worth the multi second squeeze comparatively. Because other things do that better with less cost.

lol this sums up a lot of the problems with warrior that I am running into.
I remember dying too many times in mid animation doing sunder, or died trying to leap out of stuff on maps only to get frozen and volatile plants.

I dislike how the passive tree is doing something like
-Attack speed
+ attack damage
+ stun build up

By the time I get to do my move and actually attack, I'm already dead. Too many bosses and enemies have way faster movement than you and the best attack you have is literally basic attack.

Don't get me started on armor, it really only helps with trash white mobs that come up to deal you damage. Good luck with that against chaos damage or any type of 1 shot mechanic regardless of armor. At least give those build up attacks like sunder, rolling slam etc a higher stun resistance chance or while doing animation have built in damage reduction from all attacks or something.

I have to play hit and run away from volatile plants and exploding guys like the 'filthy first born'. You better hope they don't get a mob with haste, bubble, and volatile plants or else you might as well shut off the game.

I kinda get where you're coming from in saying the speed isn't the issue. The archetype is supposed to be "big stronk man hit very slow but very hard". The slow wind up is supposed to be somewhat part of the power fantasy of the playstyle, the gentle rise before the thunderous impact. And if that IS the power fantasy GGG wants to maintain for the weapon/class archetype, then there needs to be commensurate increases to our available defense options. Armour needs to be fixed, even Kripparian has a video showcasing why it is actually the worst defense type.


But if GGG is unwilling to make it so that it is possible to build a character that is essentially damage immune (because thats honestly what it would require to run such a build in high-tier juiced content and pinnacle bosses), then the speed IS the problem and all mace abilities need to have the +attack time modifier removed, or at least let skill speed influence it. Otherwise, the entire archetype is a waste and shouldn't even be in the game as an option.

I mean, it absolutely is a problem.
It's not the only one, there are multiple.

in my eyes its the same problem as poe2. As melee you need really good gear to feel good. By the time you can farm up that good gear to play melee you already have a build that is far superior to playing it so why would you. An example of this in poe1 is echoes of creation being from uber shaper. Take for example you play ssf or hcssf. To get this item you have to kill uber shaper. Why is really going to pain through that on league start on a slammer. You will make another character to do it to get the item to make a build that is weaker than the build it took to farm the item.

Svalin and defiance of destiny are the easiest combo from what i can tell to make warrior able to survive the windups. By the time you get them you can easily make a lot better build that clears a lot better.

The pain factor of slow melee atm is pretty high.

Of course, this is why people are going crossbows on warrior instead of maces.

"

Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

in my eyes its the same problem as poe2. As melee you need really good gear to feel good. By the time you can farm up that good gear to play melee you already have a build that is far superior to playing it so why would you. An example of this in poe1 is echoes of creation being from uber shaper. Take for example you play ssf or hcssf. To get this item you have to kill uber shaper. Why is really going to pain through that on league start on a slammer. You will make another character to do it to get the item to make a build that is weaker than the build it took to farm the item.

Svalin and defiance of destiny are the easiest combo from what i can tell to make warrior able to survive the windups. By the time you get them you can easily make a lot better build that clears a lot better.

The pain factor of slow melee atm is pretty high.

Of course, this is why people are going crossbows on warrior instead of maces.

Yep, sums up my feelings as well. Make a nice caster that just slows down a little bit and sends sparks across the ENTIRE SCREEN to autokill shit, or a minion cuck that walks around casting 1 button so you can farm up enough gear to make... a slow wind up character that hits kinda hard but only if you ignore all the DPS you could have been doing during that 2 second wind up and oh BTW will just feel worse to play and do less overall damage then spells/minions.

Armour break being an active thing you need to do when casters just collect penetration nodes is also super dumb.

The person who works on melee believe in BIG HEAVY OPPOTUNITY COSTS meanwhile in the cubicle next door the person who decided on casting spells while moving believes in no opportunity costs at all. So backward.

The two archtypes are EXACTLY the opposite of how they should be designed. Allow melee to wind up while moving and release for a big huge hit.