Does Warlock seem..... weak to you?
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I noticed some numbers changing on the Warlock as the days roll closer to launch, and thought I might point out some things which MIGHT change some minds....
But I will preface this all by saying... We don't know everything. It may very well be the case that things like internal cooldowns, proc rates, base damages, something special with new uniques, etc. etc., may very well change everything I'm seeing right now, and I would love that. This is simply food for thought, especially since I'm seeing the numbers change on the fly as it is. In any case.. this is a simple thought experiment by considering each wildwood ascendancy as an opportunity cost. Primalist?
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Just currency, or grinding in SSF.
Which, considering the time the League lasts, you'll have plenty of both, making the cost quite low Warden?
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Flask slots.
We have other mechanics which do this, and while it's technically a downside, plenty of care was taken into account when designing the Warden tree. With continued investment into it, those downsides eventually start giving you benefits. The power here is "always on" Take the node, socket a tincture, and you always have it and the benefits associated with it, without jumping through hoops. The power given is VERY unconditional, and nearly every build which uses an attack has plenty of build defining, and powerful options. And it's no wonder the tinctures are powerful, and it's easy to use the tree, because flasks are quite valuable, making the opportunity cost very likely worth it. The downside is even further mitigated by The Traitor and a freshly buffed micro-distillery belt's existence. Both of which can be used on a massive variety of builds virtually unconditionally Oath seems like a logical levelling option, and respec later The very clear lean-in to the ranger archetype is supported well with benefits to marks from Detect Evil, so it makes sense and doesn't have much opportunity cost all things being equal amongst wildwood ascendancy (they're not, but for now while we don't know much.... settle for equal). It doesn't stack up to tincture shenanigans but at least it makes sense. Warlock?
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Need a +1 curse source... options being....
- amulet implicit (so you can't use new simplex... darn..) - an armor slot in various places - a handful of skillpoints and that's only if you want to run 2 curses... Necessity of casting an additional debuff on the enemy - really just slows you down, it's clunky, inefficient, DPS uptime falls - Remember, can't be automated with your other debuffs, ALWAYS separate Necessity of the build to still function with blood magic - Really limits the potential build horizon, not viable for lots of them - ESPEICALLY for "caster" archetypes, BM is more attack based.... - Also, you forgo any mana, so lots of auras, and cost options gone Grants skills can't be supported, and they restrict builds by requiring you to invest in the stats of their keywords like duration, area, cooldown, etc. If the granted skills aren't "main skills", and are meant more for utility or support, then it further restricts builds by forcing at least SOME alignment of skill gem tags from your main skill It's strange that penance is a mark. If this is a caster archetype shouldn't it be a hex? It's an awful travel to get to ranger-side for mark wheels Flask charges might sound good from penance but... if half the reason we like flask charges nowadays is for mageblood at home, we want high uptime automatic flasks, because we don't want to click extra buttons to get the power in our flasks slots. If you have to click extra buttons to apply the mark, to get your flasks to be automatic, you've defeated half the purpose of mageblood at home... This is of course because the mark is GRANTED (cant be supported, EG by mark on hit) Vaal souls are nice, but again, yet another example of very restrictive build options, when compared to Warden. Conditional modifiers, especially time based modifiers, are NOTORIOUSLY hated by fans, and for good reason. So pacify is basically something really strong and interesting mixed with the absolute worst mechanic imaginable. Minions seem OKAY with some of this stuff, but now you're just appealing to minion-ers, build restrictive as I've mentioned probably 7 other times now... Overall, half the tree doesn't make sense with the caster archetype it's clearly trying to cater to (to be the counterpart to Warden, duh). The other half is strong, with good nodes for HYPER-specific build combinations. The stats granted are also pretty conditional, which is always annoying to play with (would honestly prefer 1/4th the magnitude of stat but ALWAYS ON). Despite being the caster archetype, and Warden the attack archetype, I would play most casters as Warden just because of how much more consistent the power is, and how many less hoops to jump through..... and click this, click that, wait for this, ugh. I think it's pretty clear when weighing the opportunity costs that Warlock needs A LOT of love. You have to "give up" things like skillpoints, or gear slots JUST TO USE THE CLASS, which there is no mitigating stats for built into the Warlock tree - unlike it's apparent counterpart Warden, which actually gives you benefits for taking on the downsides it presents. Primalist is what it is, a currency sink meant to build fun and amazing builds LATER in the league. Suggestions
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I don't want the league designed EXACTLY the way I say, I'm just putting these out as creative inspiration since it seems like Warlock is in flux
If the grants skills aren't automated by default, perhaps some uniques, or an enchantment could add automation to them, themed as wildwood, obviously Simply automating the skills themselves as part of the skill, like aspects make penance a hex (disable mark skills as part if you're worried about marks) Split up Canibilised Faith, Crimson Power, and Sanguimancy, to allow for more creative freedom and build diversity to use those nodes. BM is REALLY niche. Very curious how other players, especially vets, feel about the patch in general, and Warlock specifically. I'm super hopeful for everything else, PoE has been good lately, and while losing some creative freedom with skill customization, I trust the team did cool and interesting things with the new transfig gems and we won't miss all the mostly useless choices Last bumped on Dec 5, 2023, 7:40:00 PM
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I think that's on purpose because Warlock's Wild Wisps grant Item Quant, which is by far the more powerful of the three. He's basically the magic find guy. So to balance that, he is the weakest.
Last edited by TemjinGold#1898 on Dec 3, 2023, 5:30:18 PM
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you can probably stack something like +500 life from helmet, gloves and boot(considering chest bonus is just to negate the -6life per level) and go for low life voidforge+bloodthirst. realistically hatred wrath and anger doesnt do much except for some watcher modifiers so youd need det+petrified blood and mby you can do haste with auls amulet. you can get 2 rings with life reservation prefix depending on how much reservation you need.
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Honestly didn't even know that which tree you picked affected the base content. I'll have to listen to the video again....
But even that being the case, does make it weird for something like reap, which can so greatly benefit from the tree, and the quant. That would actually seem like an even more egregious sin that some, VERY specific builds, will get the perfect wildwood tree for them, AND quant. I actually hope this isn't the case.... |
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Yah like I said feral, some builds will be really good, but VF BM Auls life stacker is like... the most specific thing I've ever heard.
Also, being attack based likely with VF, you'll probably get much more damage out of a tincture combo, and have the utility of a couple super charged flasks of your choice, and retaining all your mana to stack all the defensive auras ON TOP of getting the same damage. So, likely making Warden the way to go. I'm all for build diversity, and happy when anyone has a cool idea like this. But I'm a little sad that, as a player who prefers the caster archetype, you know, casting with my own hands, doing the damage myself, I'm pretty pidgeon-holed by specing into what is supposed to be the "caster archetype" tree. Feels like Warden delivers strong and interesting build choices for anyone who has the gem tag "attack" Warlock does not seem to deliver the same for anyone with the gem tag "spell" |
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probably get more dps from fractured rare amulet with crit multi, life and phys dmg... guess ive run too many sanctums last league hence the haste auls.
if i decide to play the league i would definitely go magi armor stacker and only later try some life stack with voidforge warlock. |
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As I wrote elsewhere...Warden and Warlock are about build-defining abilities. Tinctures can be really strong by enabling poison and ignite from unusual damage sources, but the rest seem to be okayish support abilities. Barksin might be good or bust depending on numbers.
Warlock has some interesting things to leverage. The entire Blood Magic caster archetype, and, besides some obvious support abilities, an interesting additional way of gaining flask charges and Vaal souls in boss encounters. IMO the combination of these two could be the biggest build-defining leverage among the three classes, but also most limited. I'm already eyeing a Blade Vortex/Vaal BV LL Champ, but it will probably be a late game niche build. From what we've seen so far, there don't seem to be build-defining abilities within Primalist's charm modifier pools, but a lot of power creep. Basically, a class for anyone who doesn't want to play with the most powerful abilities of the other classes. |
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so no ones gonna talk about warlocks insane mark?
you spawn enemies on the target that fuels on death effects - more vaal charges - more flask charges - easier infinite flicker - over lapping damage via strike skills that hit additional strike targets - proccing elemental heralds is that really weak? [Removed by Support]
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" It's not weak, and it's been mentioned before. But its effective applications are narrow and clunky. And that is assuming there won't be a significant cooldown to the phantasm spawning. |
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There are many ways to be weak, exsea! As Exiled mentioned, it's powerful with a very limited scope (As opposed to Warden which is powerful and has a wide scope), which is a weakness in design terms, not just a numbers game.
I'm overall excited, to go hunting in the woods to fill my backpack with powerful trinkets if I can make it back alive. I mean we haven't had a league narrative as cool as that in YEARS. I'm glad almost every build archetype has something cool and build defining. I'll have tons of fun playing attack based builds, crafting OMEGA weapons for Warden builds, and mad scientist-ing my own custom Primalist Scionesque tree. I'm just a little sad about what Warlock COULD HAVE BEEN. Given ONLY WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR, as I mentioned, more info could come out and Warlock could get much better for general casters, but for now... I feel like I'm missing out on what could be a caster version of Warden. As a general caster, who plays lots of self-cast archetyped builds, Warlock isn't the juice. I just thought I'd take the opportunity, especially seeing that the numbers are in flux for Warlock, to mention my thoughts, as a long time player, and mostly a self-caster player, in hopes to bring a new perspective when considering these last minute tweaks, which don't CHANGE which builds are good with Warlock, but instead ADD builds to the list which would WANT Warlock For example, simply splitting up the tree so you don't HAVE to take blood magic to get half the Nodes. Doesn't change a thing for builds that WANT it, just enables more builds which can't use BM to access the other nodes. and adding QoL to the granted skills, like methods for auto application to make the gameplay smooth, as opposed to clunky, to entice more builds which can and are willing to pay the opportunity cost (+curses, invest in mark wheels, invest in "granted" skill-tags, etc) |
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