Weapon Damage Nodes on the Tree are a mess, but they don't have to be!
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Hi!
Attack and weapon modifiers, especially on the skill tree, can be confusing at best for new players. Here I present a way to massively improve the clarity of such modifiers without compromising the depth of the systems. This will take a while, but I wanted to share my perspective on this topic. If you want the TL;DR, read the conclusion and examples at the end of the post. As a game designer myself, my appreciation for a complex system goes up if it is presented in a clear and consistent format. Here's 3 screenshots from the in-game passive tree: Exhibit A: a clean Spell Damage node.
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![]() Exhibit B: a clean Melee Damage node.
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![]() Exhibit C: a weapon damage node...
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![]() This is the result of the DoT changes in 3.0, followed by patchwork and neglect; but there is a better way. Now that you know what i'm talking about, let's take this step by step. Each segment is inside a spoiler to keep things tidy. I will be tackling 3 elements: node title, weapon damage wording, and the biggest issue: hit vs ailment modifiers. Node Title vs Node Content
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The third node presented is called "Two Handed Melee Damage"
The lie: - Damage: yep, that's good. - Two Handed: great, can't use this with a dagger. - Melee: lie. spectral throw will benefit from this node. the omission: - Physical: I'm not saying that this should be included in the title, but this sets a precedent for omitting key elements in the title of a node. The title of the node does not exclude "Fire damage" from the benefits, but it doesn't have to, the content of the node should cover those details. Based on these two key points, here's a few options: - "Two Handed Attack Damage" - emphasis on the damage type - "Two Handed Weapon Damage" - emphasis on the weapon type - "Two Handed Damage" - no emphasis, shorter but odd to read In the same way that the node title doesn't need to specify that it's Physical damage, it also doesn't need to specify that it doesn't work with bows. The contents of the node will clarify such details. The key information of the node is that it is attack damage that only applies to a specific type of weapon. Specific Weapon Type modifiers
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Let me show you three modifiers:
- "Increased Sword Damage" - "Increased Damage with Swords" - "Sword Attacks deal Increased Damage" Would all 3 modifiers apply in the same way? No, but I would like to argue that they should. Here's my thought process: - "Sword Damage" is an increase to the damage of a sword. As far as I know, PoE doesn't let you do other stuff with swords that isn't attacking. You can cast a Spell while wielding a sword, but if the spell doesn't use the sword, it's shouldn't scale with this modifier. - "Damage with Swords" is an increase to the thing you use the sword for. Subtle difference in a novel, no difference in this game, as explained previously. - "Sword Attacks..." Once again, there's nothing else you can use a sword for. This modifier also moves the value % to the middle of the text, making it uncomfortable to read. It does however bring in the concept of the "attack", which may or may not be useful. We'll talk about it in the third part. Most other modifiers in the game use the first example's format, but there would be nothing wrong with sticking to the second one either. This is what it would look like: - "16% Increased Sword Damage" - "30% Increased Two Handed Melee Weapon Damage" Dual Wield and Shield are conditional effects that don't depend on the active weapon, and therefore are placed as a suffix, like any other conditional effect in game. The current format of "Attack Skills deal Increased Damage while Dual Wielding" doesn't bring anything new to the table, it's just longer to read and breaks established modifier patterns. The following are much clearer, and follow the game's standard format. - "25% Increased Attack Damage while Dual Wielding" - "10% Increased Physical Damage while Holding a Shield" Hits vs Ailments
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Once again, let me show you four existing modifiers. I will tell you which damage they influence, assuming matching damage type between hit and ailment.
- "Increased Physical Damage with Swords" only hits. - "Sword Attacks deal Increased Damage with Ailments" only ailments. - "Attack Skills deal Increased Damage while Dual Wielding" hits and ailments. - "Axe Attacks deal Increased Damage with Hits and Ailments" hits and ailments... Exhibit C should not exist given the existance of that fourth modifier. But I wonder, is it not obvious that it applies to both if not specified? The third option does not specify where it applies, yet it applies to both. You may say that there's a difference between "Attack skills" and "Axe Attacks", but in PoE every attack is a skill. If all this mess is simply due to the basic attack not being a skill, it's not a good reason. However, I'd like to present another solution to this problem, which makes it even simpler, and still allows for the existence of modifiers that only target 1 of the two types of damage. Here's 3 modifiers, which stick to the convention of PoE, are clear and concise, and don't need a second line of text. - "Increased Sword Damage" - "Increased Sword Damage with Hits" - "Increased Sword Damage with Ailments" This is where I point out that MOST (if not all) weapon nodes on the passive tree give 2 different mods, one for hits and one for ailments, making the specific mods something to use very sparingly. Before I can move on, I have to address another important feature. "Melee Damage" doesn't apply to Bleed, because "Bleed" isn't considered melee damage. The same is true for "Projectile" and "Spell". The difference between "Projectile" and "Bow skill" (which does apply to Ailments) is subtle and arbitrary. The physical mechanics of rain of arrows shouldn't influence Bleed any more than the power of the projectiles themselves. So why should these modifiers be excluded? In my opinion, they shouldn't. Ailments aren't in a precarious position anymore, such that Melee, Projectile and Spell modifiers would make them OP. With Spell modifiers being the most extreme, items like Indigon would use the "Spell Damage with Hits" format instead. Similar reasoning can be applied to skill gems which have DoTs too, but that's for another post ^^ make the base game clean, leave the complexity to the exceptions. Conclusion Path of Exile is full of modifiers, it makes sense that after all these years things would be so messy. But it doesn't have to be that way. Weapon damage modifiers, Leech (coming soon), and many more elements of the game can be presented in a much more elegant way, without sacrificing any of the depth that makes this game so great. I understand that the crunch is real, and that dev time is precious, but this unnecessarily messy presentation of systems is a real obstacle to new players, pushing them away from a game that they might otherwise enjoy. If you like what i'm presenting, or disagree, drop a comment! I've tried to include all the information I could, but it's possible I missed something, and it's possible that I've overlooked something important. If you are a member of GGG and like what you see, I'm very much available for hiring, and doing this massively laborious task myself. I end this post with a list of 11 examples of increasing complexity to show how this system is not only superior to the current mess, but also how it is much more future-proof. Examples
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The format I'm sticking to for these examples is very much in PoE fashion, with the main stat "damage" surrounded by prefixes and suffixes.
(value) (operation) (form) (type) (modifier) (limitations) (conditions) value: flat or percentage bonus operation: increased, reduced, more, less, to, etc... form: spell, area, projectile, axe, two handed, etc... type: physical, cold, chaos, etc... modifier: damage, crit chance, cast speed, etc... limitations: with hits, with ailments, with vaal skills, etc... conditions: while dual wielding, while moving, etc... Examples: - "10% Increased Cold Damage" - "11% Increased Axe Damage" - "12% Increased Two Handed Mace Damage" - "13% Increased Damage with Ailments" - "14% Increased Spell Damage with Hits" - "15% Increased Melee Physical Damage" - "16% Increased Spell Damage while holding a shield" - "17% Increased Poison Damage while wielding a Dagger" - "18% Increased Bow Elemental Damage with Hits" - "19% Increased Projectile Damage with Hits while Burning" - "20% Increased Weapon Fire Damage with Hits while Dead" Notes: the "Attack" keyword can be added after the weapon type, if a damage type isn't specified, if it is absolutely necessary to reference the Attack. It could become "Axe Attack Damage", which lengthens the text but makes it sound better. I don't think it's necessary, as I explained in section 2, but it is an option. Still sane, Exile? Last edited by vukumpracapo#7846 on Aug 29, 2023, 9:27:25 AM Last bumped on Aug 29, 2023, 10:23:49 AM
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Apparently images weren't loading properly, should be fixed now!
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Having just tried to make an stun, ignite chieftan. Yes please change these nodes. Despite putting nearly all my points into damage nodes, I had to pull out pob to actually get a build going. I shouldn't need too.
Last edited by roundishcap#0649 on Aug 29, 2023, 10:24:14 AM
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