The sentiment around Harvest craft, deterministic crafting and what people overlooked.
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1). I have read a lot of opinion about Harvest crafts and it mostly followed the same logic of "getting good reward motivate people to play the game more". But I think a lot of these opinion overlook one thing. It is very difficult to design anything that gives better gear than Harvest, it is the "perfect" system to make gears in almost everyway. Without nerfing them GGG will never have a chance to introduce any other crafting mechanic into the game. For example, Rog will be pointless without the nerf to Harvest. Harvest probably is a design dead-end for GGG.
2). I think using determinism in this topic mislead people in several ways, it just make everything turns into "who wants what" in every conversation. I think "reliable" might be a better word for this. I don't think anyone would disagree that having reliable way to craft gears that are appropriate to the level of investment is a bad thing. 3). Although, I do agree that crafting right now is undesirable for casual players, but I think it is more of an information problem rather than the lack of reliability in the system. Take crafting end-game phys 2h axe for example. The way I crafted my 800+ pdps with attack speed and crit this league followed these steps. 1. I spam Deafening essence of contempt, until I hit T5 phys hybrid, with an empty prefix and at least 1 empty suffix (takes around 20 essences). 2. Farmed up Betrayal to get Aisling add unveil. 3. Craft prefix cannot be change then use Aisling bench craft to add unveil mods (50/50 chance to hit prefix), I failed the first time, got a suffix unveiled. The metacraft mod was still there, so I decided to risk and use Veiled chaos on it and I hit unveiled prefix (also 50/50 ish). Unveiled and got the %phys damage (this mod has a very high chance of occurring may be 80-90% of the time?). 4. Find Harvest reforge add Speed mod. Craft prefix cannot be change and use the mod. Got T3 speed, which is acceptable (all speed rolls have the same weighting so it's not difficult to hit high tier). 5. Craft the hybrid crit/quality mods. Now I have a 30ex endgame weapon, which I will use for the rest of the league. I think this is an appropriate investment for the power it gives. You can make a slightly lower dps weapon with a lot less investments if you don't use the Aisling stuffs and go for Multi-modding route. Overall, it is pretty reliable process for me, with very few steps that has chance to brick the item. The real problem here is this, it is only considered an appropriate investment if you don't include game knowledge as part of said investments. I have to interact with 4-5 seemingly unrelated system to make the item. Compare to Harvest where you just acquire the knowledge of one system and you can craft the end-game gear you desired. Everything is in there, add influence, reforge, remove mods, add mods, reroll value. This in my opinion is the "actual" resource that casual players don't have. The current system is too complicated, unintuitive and ill-explained. Removing the bloats or combining the process into easily communicable and simple system will do more for the crafting of this game than restoring Harvest or adding another stronger crafting imo. Last bumped on Aug 13, 2021, 4:33:44 PM
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" You made good points, I'll focus and add more on this one point from a old vs new perspective. Back in the "good ol' days" that one half of the community seems to be nostalgic about(Talking here pre- Essence league), the "core" craft was chaos spamming. If one wanted to gather reliable gear, you'd farm 200-500 chaos orbs, get a good iLevel base, then chaos spam it until you got you T1-T2 life + 3t1-t2 res mods. That was the "gg" item. By the time Harvest came out, that sort of crafting was untenable, by ANY player. No influence  1 influence  2 influence  Even as an example of "basic" influence item with 3 mods. 26 exalted or 6,136 chaos orbs  vs 370 exalted or 87445 chaos orbs  That's a huge cost increase in crafting. Without harvest, that's what you're looking at in terms if crafting "basic" items nowadays. When you add to this T0 mods, Maven mods and others, then you get into this 12751 chaos orbs or 100ex  43 402 538 chaos orbs  A fact is a statement that can be supported to be true or false by data or evidence. In contrast, an opinion is a personal expression of a person’s feelings or thoughts that may or may not be based in data.
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" +1 to a simpler system, and i very much would like one that is not gated behind particular content, so you can increase/upgrade your gear. |
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Interesting read, but mostly academic to most players, because they don't have the time to get there, or simply don't want to, because the path to getting there just doesn't feel rewarding.
" I don't. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
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Naw it was that Harvest crafting provided an avenue for improving your gear in a reliable and good manner.
What you described literally doesn't matter to anyone who doesn't play constantly and is a useless comparison to why most people want harvest back in a powerful manner. Similarly the things people are afraid of in harvest don't matter because they happen after content is exhausted and there's no reason anything matters at that point. What harvest was, was PoE's first actual reliable progression mechanic that didn't rely on trading. It's as simple as that. The thing about harvest was that it was inherently about more than making post endgame vanity items. Also the crafting system just sucks because it's boring, tedious and inherently relies on trading. While harvest is also inherently all of these things it's less of any of those things because it's more powerful and quicker. Last edited by j33bus#3399 on Aug 13, 2021, 12:31:05 PM
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" I understand the point you are trying to make here, those are good points of course. But I think there are several separate points you are trying to make there. There is 1)upgrade the gear you are wearing, 2)reliability, and 3)power of the craft. 1) I think 1 is not really important in this matter. It is a neat thing to have for sure, but this is not so different from finding another base and craft a separate gear (unless you are in SSF). 2) I would argue that reliability is achievable already in the current system, if, one you have the knowledge, two your expectation is realistic. Crafting endgame items with 3 T1 and a couple of T3 can be done with very low chance of bricking the items already in most gear slots(may be a bit less for rings and amulets). 3) This leave us with power. To be honest I think the topic of power is very difficult to discuss, since it fluctuate a lot each league, depends on the content they release and the nerf they made. This is also the part that GGG tweaks and experiment constantly, based on feedbacks. They just recently introduce Rog, which can create 4-5 T1 non-influence item already, and there will be more tools in the future. I think the best thing I think players can do right now is just saying that they are not satisfied with the current power of crafting and how overly complex it is, and let GGG work out the solutions. Chris said in the recent Baeclast that he want "Deterministic crafting" in the game, if that does not allow players to create 10/10 items trivially, I think they do understand the point. To be honest, I feel like this discussion around "Deterministic crafting is necessary or it will ruin the game" is wasting a lot of everybody time. Just say "getting good gear is too hard please fix" is already suffice as a feedback. Last edited by ajaarrkkss#7041 on Aug 13, 2021, 1:06:22 PM
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" I'm talking about finding something else and crafting that. It's not a reasonable thing to do without Harvest providing constant resources to craft with. Otherwise there's no real point to crafting until the ultra late game. It's also just more reasonable to trade for upgrades without being provided with excessive resources for crafting. If I need to trade for crafting resources I might as well just trade for the finished product. " The solution was just harvest, it worked, people were not making 10/10 items trivially they were making 5/10 items with some effort. There was literally a massive trust based discord crafting cabal for making 10/10 items and that only worked once all content was trivialized anyway so those items don't even matter. The 0.00001% who were jamming a hundred hours a week were doing this, and frankly I do not care about what those people are doing they do not matter and thinking about them always makes the game significantly worse. Last edited by j33bus#3399 on Aug 13, 2021, 3:17:39 PM
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" I get you, Harvest solved all the problem you have before. It must be very frustrating to see a clear solution in front of you and denied that solution. I just think that a lot of the problem GGG mention is also very relevant as well. They seems to be adamant about not restoring Harvest to its glory days. And based on their past merit, I am willing to trust them to find a good solution for this (they have fixed several seemingly impossible issue before life es/life problem, scion either busted/unplayable, people skipping map bosses). |
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