Help on +1 gem lvl VS +% spell dmg

Hi,

So I read on an old topic, that depending on spells almost every time a +1 to all X gem is better than +Y% spell damage.
My question is simple :

I have these two wands, the first was dropped by Hillock, the second comes from old times, maybe 2013 or 2014 when I began the game, and was taking dust in an old char inventory, so I decided to turn my Scion into a magician and test some things.

I use Fireball, but also Rolling Magma and Scorching Ray as main fire spells, and saw that a +42% spell damage +4% increased fire damage on the lvl 12 wand, were not even close to be as useful as a +1 to ALL fire gems on the lvl 2 wand.

Will I be damned to use a lvl 2 wand all this character life ? Or eventually the lvl 50+ wands with more than +60% spell damag added to my tree nodes will make them better than the lower wand ?

I also ask because I luckily enough dropped a good amount of cool wands with high +X% spell dmg and +X% fire/cold/lightning dmg and would like to know if get rid of them, or from which lvl I can begin to get rid of those wands to free some space.

I know sorcery is a gameplay which render characters less dependent on weapons since there can be better spell mods on lower lvl wands but, mechanically I want to know, and I can't have the vision that more experienced players have in this game. I doesn't bother me to use a lvl 2 wand if this makes my damage like 35% better but I'm curious.

My thanks in advance to the players who can answer. If a tool exists to test stuff with skills nodes and gem levels then I don't know, and would be glad if somebody can indicate it.

you can assign a value to +1 spell level, just take the added damage value and divide it by the damage effectiveness to find out how much flat damage its worth.

That is the value that you are weighing up on a caster weapon however you can take spell damage on the passive tree, you can't take flat fire damage for example so in most cases flat damage will scale better. PoE has several scaling options available for most skills so whichever you have the least of tends to be the one that gives biggest bonus.

For example if you make a full crit inquisitor spell damage becomes insanely valuable because you naturally have very little of it, likewise if you have dual wield void batteries giving 300% spell damage each then + spell level, or flat damage to spells becomes extremely viable.

On to weapons specifically you will require a fairly decent wand to replace a +1 spells wand, its usually around level 40 where you might get a decent replacement for a +1 driftwood for example but it does happen. Items can have 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes so a wand can infact have +1 fire spells, +fire damage to spells and spell damage all together for example which is what your really looking for.

There is a tool we use to test builds and items its called Path of Building or PoB for short you'll see it gets mentioned alot if you frequent the forums. If you install that you can import characters directly from your profile then play with gear to see what values are worth at any given time - There is alot of information provided but its kinda mandatory if you want to really min/max a character.

Lastly most gear you think is good will be vendor trash, I wouldn't hold onto old wands or well rolled ones unless they are very good or your saving them for another character and/or friend.

the +1 is going to be better than spell damage, pretty much forever.

The upgrade you want to look for would be a +1 WITH spell damage.



or, alternatively, a +2 wand (+1 ALL spell skills, +1 Fire skills)

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

you can assign a value to +1 spell level, just take the added damage value and divide it by the damage effectiveness to find out how much flat damage its worth.

That's what I thought at first, I did the maths. Like 14 and 21 being 35% of 40 and 60 respectively, I thought that my +42% spell damage would be better. I was wrong though... I'm not that good at maths but I thought that worked like that, I still ignore some of the mechanics behind.


That being said, for the rest of your post and Thror's one :

"

Thror2k5 wrote:

the +1 is going to be better than spell damage, pretty much forever.

The upgrade you want to look for would be a +1 WITH spell damage.
or, alternatively, a +2 wand (+1 ALL spell skills, +1 Fire skills)

That's obviously what I will do. At worst I can find a +1 lvl to all XXX gem and add a +50% spell damage if I can with the crafting bench.

As for your last two points :

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Draegnarrr wrote:

There is a tool we use to test builds and items its called Path of Building or PoB for short you'll see it gets mentioned alot if you frequent the forums. If you install that you can import characters directly from your profile then play with gear to see what values are worth at any given time - There is alot of information provided but its kinda mandatory if you want to really min/max a character.

Lastly most gear you think is good will be vendor trash, I wouldn't hold onto old wands or well rolled ones unless they are very good or your saving them for another character and/or friend.

Yes, I started the day before yesterday to solve my space problem by trashing all those old items in vendors' inventory (I connect once in a while to look at the new updates and reallocate my passives).

Also thanks for the name of the tool, I will definitely take a look.
I'm not frequenting the forums as often as in 2013 when I started, I usually am the type to play, find a thing that blocks me, search on the internet or test things by myself if I can do it fast enough, and continue playing. I rarely post on the forum or even look at that many topics, just because I unblock myself by searching 99% of the time.

And thanks for both of you for the confirmation of what I thought, you guys are awesome.

"

Duriel7 wrote:

That's what I thought at first, I did the maths. Like 14 and 21 being 35% of 40 and 60 respectively, I thought that my +42% spell damage would be better. I was wrong though... I'm not that good at maths but I thought that worked like that, I still ignore some of the mechanics behind.

Spoiler

They are different than other HnS I play (D2, TQ, GD and TL2 being the winning quartet).

Hmm, I'm not sure where your numbers came from.

The flat damage on the Fireball skill gem linked in your original post is currently showing base damage as a level 7 gem:
54 to 81

For an average damage of (54+81)/2 = 67.5

Meanwhile, wiki lists the level 8 gem flat damage as:
72 to 109

For an average damage of (72+109)/2 = 90.5

The relative damage boost is:
90.5/67.5 = 1.3407 = "34.07% more damage"*

---------------------

Meanwhile, if your character is level 20, and we suppose maybe 8 of your passive points are in DPS nodes that grant an average of 12% increase damage, you are probably at around 96% increased damage.

Your first wand grants a total of 12% increased damage whilst your second wand grants a total of 42% increased damage for a marginal damage increase of 30% increased damage (which is already less than 34.07%, but as you'll see shortly, even if it's greater than 40%, it may still be less of a "more damage" multiplier):

First wand: (1 + 0.96 + 0.12) = 2.08 damage multiplier from "increased" modifiers
Second wand: (1 + 0.96 + 0.42) = 2.38 damage multiplier from "increased" modifiers

The relative damage boost is:
2.38/2.08 = 1.1442 = "14.42% more damage"

As promised, let's try this same exercise with 50% marginal increased damage, and see that 50% increased does not even reach 34.07% more even in that case.

First wand: (1 + 0.96 + 0.12) = 2.08 damage multiplier from "increased" modifiers
Second wand: (1 + 0.96 + 0.62) = 2.58 damage multiplier from "increased" modifiers

The relative damage boost is:
2.58/2.08 = 1.24038 = "24.04% more damage"

=====================

*Note - While leveling your character, gem levels usually provide a larger marginal boost than at higher levels. If we repeat the same exercise for going from gem level 20 to gem level 21:

1095 to 1643 - level 20
1217 to 1826 - level 21

The relative damage boost is:
((1217+1826)/2)/((1095+1643)/2) = 1.111395 = "11.14% more damage"

At which point, yes, it will be easier for massive x% increased spell damage to outperform +y skill gem levels.

=====================

As you can see above, the way I (and probably a lot of other players) like to conceptualise choices is as "more damage" comparisons. That is, any bonus that applies multiplicatively to all existing bonuses. x% increased damage your character/skill has stacks additively with any other y% increased damage your character/skill has, which gives it a different z% more damage than just x% increased. Meanwhile, any bonus in the game that says x% more damage, will apply x% more damage, as mathematically noted above. The only "loophole" exception is when there is x% more damage per y mechanic, in which case those are added together before building the "real" (x*y)% more damage multiplier.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Additionally, although I think it's useful to understand these concepts so you know what's the basis for your DPS calcs and decision making, as others have noted Path of Building will do all these calculations for you so you don't have to wonder "what y% more damage does this x% increased damage translate to?" as the program will do that for you, given all your other character gear/passives and the presumed circumstances (enemy resistances, enemy cursed, etc.)

deleted, obsolet

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Trinidad_Scorpion wrote:

Adghar correct as always. Let me nitpick:
This

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adghar wrote:

The relative damage boost is:
2.58/2.08 = 1.1442 = "24.04% more damage"

should read like:

2.58/2.08 = 1.24038 = "24.04% more damage"

Thanks - fixing it in a quick edit shortly.

"

adghar wrote:

"

Duriel7 wrote:

That's what I thought at first, I did the maths. Like 14 and 21 being 35% of 40 and 60 respectively, I thought that my +42% spell damage would be better. I was wrong though... I'm not that good at maths but I thought that worked like that, I still ignore some of the mechanics behind.

Spoiler

They are different than other HnS I play (D2, TQ, GD and TL2 being the winning quartet).

Hmm, I'm not sure where your numbers came from.

The flat damage on the Fireball skill gem linked in your original post is currently showing base damage as a level 7 gem:
54 to 81

For an average damage of (54+81)/2 = 67.5

Meanwhile, wiki lists the level 8 gem flat damage as:
72 to 109

For an average damage of (72+109)/2 = 90.5

The relative damage boost is:
90.5/67.5 = 1.3407 = "34.07% more damage"*

+ rest of your post

Yes, that was the lvl before, I increased to lvl 7 because I wanted to test this, but the lvl before was really 40 to 60 => 54 to 81. And then for lvl 8 you're right.

+ rest of your post : Holy cow man, thank you so much ! I'm, as I said, not that good at maths plus I have ADHD, so I completely forgot that I already had the +12% spell dmg on the first wand and went mixing things up... sometimes I feel dumb. Anyways, your explanation was clear and useful thank you.