Question regarding "cannot" vs. "always"

Hi,

I haven't play POE awhile, I saw the recent patch notes regarding the elementalist changes, I was wondering can someone please tell/explain to me what will happen when elementalist choose something that gain "your hits always ignite" or "your hits always shock" when the skill or condition itself is you can not ignite or you can not inflict ignite? (has there been situation like this before?)

Also, let's say if I am using the new skill hydrosphere, but I have the new "your hits always ignite" then does that mean the hydrosphere will ignite monster based on hydrosphere's cold/lightning damage? (but the ignite is "fire" type damage?)

ps. elementalist "shaper of winter" is the only one that does not have "always" in the description... only "can chill". did chill mechanics got changed? in the past as long you have cold damage in your hits, it will always chill.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

- cannot rule is usually stronger than the rule always
- hits always ignite should still require a fire damage source unless its conflux which makes all your hit damage count towards the ailment that has conflux.

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zzang wrote:

- cannot rule is usually stronger than the rule always
- hits always ignite should still require a fire damage source unless its conflux which makes all your hit damage count towards the ailment that has conflux.

I see... thank you.

"

- hits always ignite should still require a fire damage source unless its conflux which makes all your hit damage count towards the ailment that has conflux.

Elementalist nodes now have "All Damage with Hits can _______", which I think OP might be talking about, and based on the writing I assume that it means off-type damage can inflict the ailment but I could be misinterpreting the benefit (it's possible that the off-damage doesn't scale it, just activates the bare minimum of the ailment).

"

ps. elementalist "shaper of winter" is the only one that does not have "always" in the description... only "can chill". did chill mechanics got changed? in the past as long you have cold damage in your hits, it will always chill.

Chill never had a % chance to happen to begin with AFAIK, as long as you hit with cold and you did enough damage to have at least a 5% chill, then the enemy was chilled. I think that is why "can" is written there, because it is possible for chill to fail if the hit did too little damage and this node makes no exception.

In this game if there is ever 2 things that sound like they might contradict each other, it's almost always the worse one that wins out.

"

Almighty_hippo wrote:

Hi,

I haven't play POE awhile, I saw the recent patch notes regarding the elementalist changes, I was wondering can someone please tell/explain to me what will happen when elementalist choose something that gain "your hits always ignite" or "your hits always shock" when the skill or condition itself is you can not ignite or you can not inflict ignite? (has there been situation like this before?)

Also, let's say if I am using the new skill hydrosphere, but I have the new "your hits always ignite" then does that mean the hydrosphere will ignite monster based on hydrosphere's cold/lightning damage? (but the ignite is "fire" type damage?)

ps. elementalist "shaper of winter" is the only one that does not have "always" in the description... only "can chill". did chill mechanics got changed? in the past as long you have cold damage in your hits, it will always chill.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Shaper of winter: All damage from Hits can chill.
How this works stands to be examined, but likely it will chill each time it hits. Bear in mind a good many skills chill inherently - Creeping Frost, for example, when foes are in the creep.

As for ignite; when the hydrosphere 'pulses' it will 'hit' whatever is in its radius and apply Ignite with Shaper of Flames. However, if there is little to no fire damage in the pulse the ignite won't do much except inflict an ailment which can be utilized by further skills that increase damage to burning enemies.
This may have issues where players equip support gems that say 'cannot apply ignite' - which means that the item applies the Scorch ailment. I am not sure if that will carry over to the 'always ignite' nature of the node.

Things that do not 'hit' such as the ground effect of Creeping Frost will not apply any of the ailments. So, with that skill, the initial projectiles can 'ignite' what they hit, but the creep cannot - so the occultist Creep build will still be somewhat better. The burning ground of a fire trap will not chill or shock if something walks into it, but can do both if the trap triggering 'hits' them.

Basically, "always" and similar mods still require their stated effect to be possible to start with. "can not" makes an effect impossible, so "always" no longer applies for that effect. "can not" always wins that battle... ;)

"

VolcanoElixir wrote:

ps. elementalist "shaper of winter" is the only one that does not have "always" in the description... only "can chill". did chill mechanics got changed? in the past as long you have cold damage in your hits, it will always chill.

Quite right.

There is no "Your cold damage can always chill" because this is already what happens with cold damage.

Despite the feeling, Ignite, Freeze and Shock have a 0% chance to happen naturally. In order to make a damage able to inflict those ailments, it either needs to crit or to have a chance to apply that ailment from other sources (for example, Combustion support). In the case of Freeze, Chill and Shock, damage should also be high enough to reach a minimum ailment threshold, whose value is a fraction of the actual ailment threshold of the monster. Such ailment threshold is 100% of the Monster's life, but it is "slightly less" on endgame bosses (don't ask for a percentage. We will never know.)

On the other hand, chill has a 100% chance to happen, be it from Cold Damage or from other damage able to chill (for example, Physical Damage while holding Soul Taker) or, well, any hit when taking Shaper of Winter at this point. It seems to not always happen because you still have to get over the ailment threshold in order to apply it.

What makes Shaper of Winter (or Shaper of Storm, actually) so special is the fact they also give chill/shock a minimum effect. While usually dealing an insignificant cold/lightning damage (for example, a 1-3 from a stray Abyss Jewel) would mean those chill/shock will not happen because damage is way lower than the minimum threshold, the two Shapers will make even those meager values able to deal a Shock or a Chill of minimum effect, regardless if you are fightning a Lv1 Drowned or an A8 Sirus.

Basically, the Shapers' effect can be read as this:

"All of your hits will apply [elemental ailment] with minimum effect. Effect of [elemental ailment] will be increased by x% More if the hit deals mainly [element] damage"

"

BlaqWolf wrote:

Shaper of winter: All damage from Hits can chill.
How this works stands to be examined, but likely it will chill each time it hits.

This is basically what GGG described as "Conflux" in the past: https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Conflux

I dont know why they changed the wording here since the new amulet Leaderships Price is using the Conflux Keyword.

Edit: i guess because there is no damage threshold to be bypassed.

Adding to this topic, because my question is semi-related.



"Your Hits always Ignite"

How does this interract with the map mod "Monsters have x% chance to avoid elemental ailments". This mod alone is one of the reason I've had a love-hate relationship with ignite builds in the past, since once you start creeping up on 70%+ chance to avoid ignite, ignite builds get really tedious to map with.