Vessel of Vinktar, Shock Avoidance, Cannot be shocked, shock effectiveness.

So, just want some clarification on what prevents vessel of vinktar from shocking me. Will 100% chance to avoid being shocked do it? Will "Cannot be shocked", like from Fairgrave's Tricorne? Are these two actually the exact same thing (I notice u need to search for "100% chance to avoid being shocked" on the trade page to get Tricorne to show up.) What if I had 75% chance to avoid shock? Would vessel shock me only 25% of the time?

Also, would reducing effectiveness of shock to 0% against myself achieve the same result?

Does chance to avoid work against shocking ground? What are the pros and cons to reducing effectiveness vs avoiding shock?

Thanks a lot!

Everytime you would get shocked, the Chance to avoid shock will cause a roll to determine whether or not you actually will get shocked. So, if you have a 50% Shock chance, and a Shock would actually be inflicted on you (as in, not every single time you get a lightning hit), there is a 50% chance you will "dodge" that shock - as in, it will not be applied to you. Sipping from Vinktar will cause those rolls

As another player have tested with Blind, "100% Chance to avoid XXX" is equal to "Cannot be XXX". So, if you manage to build up "100% Chance to avoid shock", you cannot be effectively shocked.

The only exception for those kind of rolls come from Shocking Ground, or Skitterbots' Shocking Aura, being under another player's Vinktar shock effect, or any other kind of aura/hazard that actually apply inherently a shock because you step on them or you are in their range. In those cases, either you have a 100% Shock avoidance, or you will get shocked for a fixed shock effect (if it's not explcitally stated, it is always 20% increased damage taken)

"Reduce effect of shock on you" will only reduce the effect of shock, in this case the Damage Taken buff. Bear in mind that if you have a 100% Reduced effect of shock on you and you step on a Shocking Ground (20% increased damage taken), you will be shocked for 20*(1/(1+1))20*0.5=10% increased damage taken. You cannot completely avoid damage taken from shock with reduced effect of shock on you. This is extremely important in reflect maps if you rely on "100% reduced reflected damage taken" as a protection against it

Also, there is another condition which is Immunity. Immunity and "100% avoidance" have the same net effect - make a certain ailment/debuff ineffective on you. The main difference is that the 100% Avoidance/"Cannot be" will not let the ailment actually be inflicted on you, whereas Immunity will still apply the ailment, but will reduce its effectiveness to 0. This may come in handy if you get some bonus for being shocked

For example, you may not want to use Fairgrave's Tricorne when using Maligaro's Restraint, since by not letting Shock be inflicted upon you you effectively lose Maligaro's bonus for being shocked. Rather, you would like to wear an Inpulsa's Broken Heart, which makes you immune to shock. The shock is there, but you will not get any malus from it - bonus for being shocked, like Maligaro's, will indeed apply

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Maxtrux wrote:

"Reduce effect of shock on you" will only reduce the effect of shock, in this case the Damage Taken buff. Bear in mind that if you have a 100% Reduced effect of shock on you and you step on a Shocking Ground (20% increased damage taken), you will be shocked for 20*(1/(1+1))20*0.5=10% increased damage taken. You cannot completely avoid damage taken from shock with reduced effect of shock on you. This is extremely important in reflect maps if you rely on "100% reduced reflected damage taken" as a protection against it

This is incorrect. 100% reduced effect of non-damaging ailments will make you unaffected by those ailments unless an enemy inflicting such an ailment has increased effect of that ailment.

Shocked ground will not affect you if you have 100% reduced effect of shock on you. The formula is min(50%, base shock effect * (100% + increased shock effect)), so in the case of 20% shocked ground it would be 20% * (100% - 100%) = 0.

Hm. I guess I fell into the "reduced is not less" trap. Knowing that Immunity = 100% Reduced effect of XXX on you is a really interesting insight, and actually opens up some very interesting build options for a Maligaro self-shock build.

Thank you for correcting me and made me learn something new once again

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DER_PSYCHOPATH wrote:

100% reduced effect of non-damaging ailments will make you immune to those ailments

This is misleading. Immunity is a specific game mechanic where something does not apply. For example Pyromaniac grants immunity to shock and ignite, so neither of those ailments can apply to a player with that Ascendancy notable. 100% reduced effect means the ailment will still apply, but it will have no effect.

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twitticles wrote:

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DER_PSYCHOPATH wrote:

100% reduced effect of non-damaging ailments will make you immune to those ailments

This is misleading. Immunity is a specific game mechanic where something does not apply. For example Pyromaniac grants immunity to shock and ignite, so neither of those ailments can apply to a player with that Ascendancy notable. 100% reduced effect means the ailment will still apply, but it will have no effect.

Right, that was my mistake. It is not actual immunity, it will simply not affect you. Anything like "while you are shocked" would still apply, but you would not take increased damage.

Thanks guys for the awesome answers and discussion! Just want to be fully clear on something Maxtrux said about shocking ground, auras, etc. Are you saying with these things that you are always shocked, regardless of your avoidance, unless u specifically have 100% or more avoidance? So with 99% avoidance I would get shocked just as much as if I had 0%?

So what I take away from the discussion is that 100% avoidance and 100% reduced effectiveness are pretty much equal most of the time. But when monsters have increased effectiveness of an elemental ailment I need more than 100% effectiveness, correct? How frequent does that occur in late game (after story)? It's my first playthrough.

Do buffs to my own shock affect Vessel of Vinktar's self-shock? Example: If I have 20% increased effectiveness of shock from passive tree, and I use Vessel of Vinktar, would I need 120% reduced effectiveness to negate it?

Also, do buffs to my own shock affect the shock that Vessel of Vinktar applies to enemies? For example, would 100% increased shock effectivenes cause Vessel to apply a 20% shock to enemies instead of 10%.

Thanks again guys!

One other question that came to me about Vinktar. Is it me that is applying the 10% shock to enemies with it? Would passives that say "increased damage if u have shocked an enemy recently" trigger off it? Thanks!

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Stebobibo wrote:

Thanks guys for the awesome answers and discussion! Just want to be fully clear on something Maxtrux said about shocking ground, auras, etc. Are you saying with these things that you are always shocked, regardless of your avoidance, unless u specifically have 100% or more avoidance? So with 99% avoidance I would get shocked just as much as if I had 0%?

So what I take away from the discussion is that 100% avoidance and 100% reduced effectiveness are pretty much equal most of the time. But when monsters have increased effectiveness of an elemental ailment I need more than 100% effectiveness, correct? How frequent does that occur in late game (after story)? It's my first playthrough.

Do buffs to my own shock affect Vessel of Vinktar's self-shock? Example: If I have 20% increased effectiveness of shock from passive tree, and I use Vessel of Vinktar, would I need 120% reduced effectiveness to negate it?

Also, do buffs to my own shock affect the shock that Vessel of Vinktar applies to enemies? For example, would 100% increased shock effectivenes cause Vessel to apply a 20% shock to enemies instead of 10%.

Thanks again guys!

I do not know if any enemies have increased effect of any ailments, because for 99.99% of the builds, there is no reason to research that, and while enemies are generally datamined on poedb, they are not indexed in a way that would allow to search for this easily. I would not expect it to be common, but I cannot exclude the possibility of dying to reflect if you have 100% reduced reflected damage taken and are shocked with 100% reduced effect of shock on you.

Increased effect of shock that is not specific to a gem setup or specific method of applying shock should apply to shocks you inflict by using flasks. I do not know if this applies to shocks inflicted on yourself.

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Stebobibo wrote:

One other question that came to me about Vinktar. Is it me that is applying the 10% shock to enemies with it? Would passives that say "increased damage if u have shocked an enemy recently" trigger off it? Thanks!

Yes, using the flask will be you shocking an enemy. The only way for this not to apply to you that I am aware of is for minions to use the flask with Mother's Embrace.

Thanks, DER_PSYCHOPATH! If anyone can fill in the answers he didn't know, or answer with more confidence, that would be great.