I've Changed My Mind About Winter Orb; It IS Overperforming.
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I used to think the skill was fine, but now I think it does too much atm. I'd rather focus on ways to fix it than why I changed my mind, though. The core issue I see is that it takes the best of normal channeled skills and combines it with the best of Blade Vortex. Imagine if you could build up 15 seconds of Divine Ire or Scourge Arrow and then just run at max speed through everything in the game. That's what WOrb is.
In my opinion, the solution would be to separate the design focus into one of two approaches, but I wouldn't want to adjust the damage in either of them: 1) Make it work more like Blade Vortex. Remove the channeling tag from the gem and probably lower it's targeting range by about 35-50%. This makes it slightly more risky since you have to get closer and doesn't allow it to use Infused Channeling--which is meant for stationary, self-cast channeled skills--while running at top speed through maps or delve. I don't think this would break the skill as fun, viable, and enjoyable, but it would alter the way it's built slightly. 2) Make it a proper channeled skill. Remove the duration buff: You lose all stacks when you move. This justifies the high range of the skill, the use of Infused Channeling, the channeling passives on the tree, and forces player to focus a little more on defenses, and forces players to decide when to attack or move. This may call for some kind of compensation buff, maybe requiring less cast speed to reach max charges or increasing projectile speed somewhat. Two other issues exist that contribute to this skill being too strong right now: I.) The "% elemental/non-chaos as added chaos damage" interaction with conversion. This isn't exclusive to this skill, but is abused most heavily among players who do use it. I see this as needing to be fixed regardless of what happens to WOrb, so I won't go to much deeper into it here. II.) The projectiles can "shotgun" in a way most other skills cannot. Technically, it's the overlapping aoe splashes that produce this effect, but the issue for WOrb specifically is that of the x# of projectiles it fires, they all target fairly close together near the actual target and their splash radius is high enough that this commonly produces that "shotgun" effect. Unfortunately, the two best solutions I can think of to this both represent dramatic nerfs to the skill overall, and I think the skill would definitely need compensation buffs if either of them happened. a) Remove the aoe splash. This solves the shotgun issue outright, mechanically, and requires no further work. It also limits which support gems can apply to WOrb, which is a further indirect nerf. This may be the most heavy-handed approach. Definitely increase damage drastically if this is the chosen method. b) Change projectile targeting somehow. Either set a minimum distance from the target for each projectile after the 1st, or don't allow multiple projectiles to select the same target. This gets really complicated in the number of ways to implement it and would require extensive testing to get right, but could be the better approach if handled well. If not, it could be the worst approach. It's worth noting that there are a huge number of ways to change this skill beyond what I have outlined, but most of the ones I've heard of seem like they would utterly gut it, and I don't want that to happen. It should still be fun and viable, but right now it just offers way too much in a one-gem package. Tired of trolls? Ignore them. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168 Last bumped on May 21, 2019, 10:19:06 PM
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Spoiler
" The ONLY real issue is the fact that it can shotgun. The damage wouldn't be that good if you couldn't consistently hit a single enemy with 4 snowballs out of a 5-ball salvo, but as it is GMP becomes TWO HUNDRED PERCENT MORE DAMAGE on a single support gem, which is absolutely stupid. As you mentioned, either the spread pattern of the shots needs to be MUCH wider so as to prevent overlap from occurring, or the shots themselves need to be pure targeted projectiles with no splash AOE at all. As long as Worb gets a full 6-link's worth of damage from a single support gem it'll be 100% busted, even if they reduce the base damage to literally zero. Last edited by ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 on May 21, 2019, 6:20:34 AM
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Eh, I don't think WOrb would be worth anything if GMP didn't work that way.
Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168 |
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This isn't really a debatable opinion, its a fact, so yeah
Your ideas on how to fix it are good though I think my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes ----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982#1658 on May 21, 2019, 11:30:38 AM
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GGG completely fucked up the design of this skill. How could they design a skill so it triples your dps with gmp instead of making your clearspeed faster and damage lower just like it does to the rest of the skills in Poe. I hope to see worb going away in 3.7, being nerfed to the oblivion. Why would anyone play anything else rather then worb trickster? This is the worst balance patch so far from GGG they are not even trying anymore, saddening
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" I think that's a bit of an over-reaction. It is definitely one of their larger balance blunders, especially leaving it in this state for so long, but I don't think we can accuse them of "not trying" until we see what they do in 3.7. Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168 |
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OP_post
" 1) works, though it's not a good choice to change a skill if the underlaying mechanics are the cause of the issue, not the skill itself. Winter Orb just showcases the problems existing. 2) As long as the Channeling is the immediate 10-Stage counter then it's not usable, and if it is, the moment you press the button it becomes an immediate screen-clearer. Also not having to build up duration-nodes for comfort (and sometimes survivability) would be contra to what you want to achieve. As for I.) absolutely, but that is the underlaying mechanic of conversion, the one mechanic I'm always speaking out for that it has NO PLACE in ANY game in the way it's implemented. It's just outright stupid to be in the game in such a state, especially for as long as it's existing. II.) Not true, Kinetic Blast has a similar effect at close-range. Tornado Shot has a massive DPS-boost based on how many projectiles you have as those explode into more projectiles. Barrage is just outright insanity with increasing the projectile-count. It's a common issue with all AoE projectile-based skills. Your solutions on the other hand would have a ripple-effect for b) and outright destroy the skill for a) with how fun it feels. So, my personal solution is the following: Remove conversion-scaling, re-work how multiple projectiles work, evenly spreading the damage between each existing projectile and the gem offering a More damage mod instead. " As stated above, not the only skill making use of it, the sorry state has been in the game for years now. The base-mechanic needs an overhaul, not Winter Orb itself, it only needs adjustments afterwards like all projectile-based skill will. " Not happening, they need to re-work the whole skill in a MASSIVE way mechanically to change the power. You can get uber-elder viable with 300k per shot without the gem even having any base-damage. " The largest one since I've played PoE, and as you've said especially for the amount of time it's existing now. And no... they're definitely trying, just being incompetent, absolutely here. The community showcased several issues with mechanics since months or years now, in various degrees. GGG never tackled them as it would be 'too big of an undertaking' seemingly. Which is BS as we're speaking about the core-functionality of the game here, not some slapped on league which won't work for 2 months out of 3 as we had this time. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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" True, the long list of "shotgun exempt projectile skills" often reads like a list of "things that are OP in the game right now" (currently featuring things like barrage and molten strike alongside WOrb itself, with past entries such as KB and OG-incinerate often defining the metas of their times), but I don't think it's accurate to compare these skills directly because the difference in how extreme the scaling becomes is an order of magnitude off. I've been playing POE since Rampage, and I can say confidently that there has never, ever been a skill as ludicrously overpowered as Winter Orb in this game. WOrb with GMP goes from 1-5 projectiles, for a potential 375% damage if all 5 hit. This does happen, but not all the time; we'll call it 4/5 on average for 300% of the single-shot damage. Barrage STARTS with 5 projectiles, so even in a best-case scenario GMP is only giving you 35% more damage (9 projectiles at 75% damage versus 5 at 100). I personally don't think this is a good thing either - I agree with what someone said above, GMP should NEVER give you a single target damage increase - but the power that it gives Winter Orb borders on criminal negligence. Because even the 1000 Hour Club would have realized GMP = 200% More Damage was insane, the only possible conclusion is that NOBODY THOUGHT TO TEST THIS BEFORE RELEASING THE SKILL. And that is a thought that should concern everyone: what kind of balance team doesn't even think to see what happens when they put Greater Multiple Projectiles onto a new Projectile skill? Last edited by ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 on May 21, 2019, 3:58:10 PM
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Well, GMP in the current state is simply limiting the vast options of enjoyable implementations of skills, as is conversion, but that's what I'm pushing in the forums since quite a while now.
Both mechanics need a re-work, botch mechanics are handled different in basically any game at the moment... and for a good reason as well. Why GGG tries to be unique in a way which doesn't bode well to be unique in is fairly baffling. A good game doesn't become good by inventing the wheel again, it's by improving existing designs paired with new ones. Heck, often only improving on existing stuff only. And you're right, it doesn't do as much for some other skills, though especially given how for instance... Tornado Shot works, there it's a major issue. Explosions can overlap, projectiles from those explosions have all a separate targeting as well and also scale very heavily with other multipliers like crit or extra chaos. As soon as anything isn't standalone anymore it should be cause for concern, usually it should go like this: -Implement a skill. -Oh... something is scaling problematic. -Looking for what exactly does it. -Adjusting this for future implementation. -Tons of skills without issue added. How GGG works on the other hand: -Implement a skill. -Oh... something is scaling problematic. -Nerf the shit out of other mechanics or flat damage simply! -Implement next broken skill based on the same mechanics. You see, instead of this massive workload of balancing GGG COULD use a fraction of their time to fix the underlying problem and instead use their resources on actually implementing more new things or tackling other issues present. The more of those problematic mechanics they add or simply not touch the worse the time-sink and resource-waste becomes. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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The range needs to be cut by at least 35%, maybe up to 50% less even.
Otherwise i think the potential speed is also a problem, not the dmg. If you cap the cast speed(hit rate) and reduce the range you severely reduce its clear potential. You can cap the hit rate by simply adding something like 0,3 hit rate per winter orb stage, and now ignores cast speed for this part and is only useful for getting to max stage faster. If we simply look at the damage there are lots of skills that scale to ridiculous levels...Winter orb is not exactly unique for chaos/conversion shenanigans. You just wasted 3 seconds reading this. Last edited by Tian_Yihao#4319 on May 21, 2019, 6:04:45 PM
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