I made a pathfinder and I see why it has so much appeal but...

I initially brushed off the pathfinder ascendancy because I didn't like the reliance on flasking and building specifically around them seemed like a really niche thing to do.

But having never gotten one over 50 and boredom with my lazy totems I gave it a go. Since all but one of my characters revolved around ES, I had to experiment with defensive layers, which brings me to my first point of discussion:

1. Defensive layers seem to really need an overhaul.

Armor may be great against the masses of smaller hits, but it offers little protection against the big heavy hits, when you need the most reduction. Basalt flasks have become almost standard for anything I play now in the later levels.

Since I usually resort to ES/CI, I can only "dream" of what they used to play like. ES/Health doesn't seem to synergize well, and its usually pushed me towards focusing on the ES/CI instead.

Health stacking is a tad irritating and has such an impact on gearing, even moreso than my usual ES/CI setups. With ES/CI Certain slots are practically guaranteed to have certain items. When building for health, otherwise useful stats lose their value if they lack a decent health roll, yet my ES/CI doesn't have to rely on grabbing ES from virtually every slot in comparison.

2. Flasking is so constant its practically a secondary set of abilities.

I get the impression that flasks were meant to provide emergency sustain and occasional temporary buffs -- but have essentially evolved to require constant maintenance.

While I think that's fine to constantly micromanage flasks on a niche build that relies on them for damage immunity to almost everything -- even my totems rely on them for bleeds, curses and the temporary damage buff.

Maybe I'm just too nostalgic and still see them mostly like red and blue pots on the belt, but I can't help but wonder if flasks should play such a pivotal role in EVERY build.

I think it is GGG intention to make armor scale asymptotically with hits. Armour/Evasion were never meant as a defensive layer for bosses. They are just for mobs. Don't underestimate it though, without them you just dies to a pack of 10 mobs attacking at the same time.

Ironically, people who are lazy with flasks are exactly those who needs to play pathfinder the most. Since flasks provides so much damage, ignoring them is not an option and a longer duration flasks with Pathfinder helps you not to press them that often.

sh12345ut u12345p fl1235sks 12345re fin2134e

wat

Flasks always were an oh-shit button.
But as the game evolved into a one-shot-or-be-one-shot, every moment became an oh-shit moment.

From running through Lunaris Temple and hitting a Granite Flask when Kole showed up, to the current situation where you piano flasks because every fkn wolf or squirrel in a Delve can one-hit you before, during and even after the fight, since GGG got addicted to Porcupine Spike type mechanics.

This is what makes a Pathfinder shine.
There would be little use for a flask-oriented class in Open Beta. But now there is.

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johnKeys wrote:

Flasks always were an oh-shit button.

I disagree. Strongly. If we discard life- and manaflasks, every single flask is "proactive". Every single player that looks at flasks as "oh-shit-buttons" have a lot to learn.

Most flasks are designed to be proactive, and "shine" when you use them actively while playing - in all parts of the game.

You don't use them all the time because every single moment is an "oh-shit moment". You use them all the time because they're OP and benefit your speed, offense, defense and utility. And we're not only talking about Pathfinders here.

This isn't something new. Utility flasks are designed this way.

The game always had min-maxers and speedsters, Phrazz. But the difference came when GGG started balancing towards them I think.
You didn't have to Quicksilver in Beta. You mostly Quicksilvered out of harm's way.
You only had to Granite vs. big hitters. Now everything is a big hitter.

In the current iteration of Path Of Exile, you have to flask even if you are not playing Meta or racing or min-maxing.
Otherwise you're screwed by game mechanics designed to punish non-meta non-min-maxers.

Pathfinder fits right in.
GGG created the need, then created the class to fill that need.
Heck even Berserker goes fast now. They took a tank and made into a Formula One.

"

ladish wrote:

sh12345ut u12345p fl1235sks 12345re fin2134e

I'm not looking for a nerf - it was more a reflection on their necessity and how they often do the heavy lifting in terms of damage mitigation with defenses from gear often playing a secondary role.

You would think defenses and mitigation would be a hot topic since it's a factor in whatever becomes meta.

I'm surprisingly impressed with what strong dodge numbers can do when paired with sustain, but there's a slight paranoia that when something random gets through its going to hit for a massive spike.

Currently I've got a forbidden taste for an "oh shit" button, a basalt, an amethyst and quartz (for reliable phasing and extra dodge) with those three covering bleed, curses and and freeze immunity with a quicksilver for even more speed. Luckily, elemental status ailments are covered by pathfinder, but poison can become an issue.

It's not so much that flasks are powerful when constantly utilized -- it's more the fact that the standard defensive options are lacking despite the power creep leading to bigger hits.

johnkeys is right the way we use flasks has changed substantially, now I basically work on the assumption all my flasks will be on all the time, the only ones that are difficult to keep up are 60 chargers or expensive ones like basalt etc on reduced flask charge maps.

If your flask buffs drop off now you generally aren't clearing fast enough

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

johnkeys is right the way we use flasks has changed substantially, now I basically work on the assumption all my flasks will be on all the time, the only ones that are difficult to keep up are 60 chargers or expensive ones like basalt etc on reduced flask charge maps.

If your flask buffs drop off now you generally aren't clearing fast enough

And that's what I was hoping would be a point more people would be interested in discussing.

They were pretty much just an oh shit button from the D2 roots since D2 really only had belt size limiting your pot storage but otherwise it was just a choice between varying sizes of red or blue.

In PoE, I feel the game design gets a bit restrictive, forcing people to choose between a very limited select amount of options that must be utilized regardless of character design.