A brief look at mantra of flames

(sorry resize)

Although character is no dedicated "mantra of flames" character, and i don't even have a (leveled) enlighten gem, but with a random alpha's howl that I got a reduced reservation enchant (purity of fire) and using victario's for non-auras (artic armour, 3 heralds), a golem and tempest shield, there are 9 reliable buffs active. This is with a relatively high roll

(range:
Adds (3–5 to 8–12) Fire Damage to Attacks per Buff on You
Adds (2–3 to 5–8) Fire Damage to Spells per Buff on You)

In short it needs a buff!

My above average roll Mantra grants 45-99 fire to attacks atm...

I've managed to make it a bit better than static electricity.

Which is a problem! Why is something with such a fairly invested setup only a bit better than static electricity? not to mention Mantra of Flames is limited to 1!

don't really want to throw static electricity under the bus here but it's one of the few comparable things ...

Note: Static electricity has so many ways to get 60-70 dex in the radius without even going out of the way to grab 10 dex nodes that don't path to anything. In more than one socket it can grab one notable with 20 dex in, and another socket it can grab other notables with 10 dex.

Static electricity reliably gives 1-120 in just about any build. There is a spot where you can get like 1-160/180 without even grabbing random 10 dex nodes (between acro and aspect of lynx)!

Please make mantra of flames something more build defining or just straight up stronger! Currently it seems to synergize the best with... support characters who absolutely do not need to be granted damage.

Mantra also adds fire damage to spells.

Static electricity is too strong for 1 Jewel, I don't think it's a good comparison.

Also, note you said 'reliable' buffs. 9 reliable buffs is a decent amount. But there are plenty of less-reliable buffs you can still get a lot of the time. For example, flask effects.

So, basically, you're saying your character isn't a dedicated mantra character, and you still managed to get the gem to be better than one of the best jewels there is - static electricity - and that's just as a baseline. It can get even higher when you use flasks, touch shrines, or have other effects on you as well (eg: Ascendancy buffs). Seems fine to me I think.

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PS: other buffs include things like rallying cry, fortify, onslaught, phasing and unholy might, and also aura totems like rejuve totem. You could even get an animated guardian using leer cast and dying breath.

Flask effects have long since stopped counting as buffs! This is also true for onslaught and phasing granted from such flasks. I didnt check consecrated ground and a lot of other stuff though.

Sorry, the part about my char not being a dedicated mantra character was probably not well presented on my part, I meant i swapped some gear (an es chest and hat for victario's and alpha's howl) to see how many buffs I could fit. The character has 24% reduced reservation otherwise on tree, and the victario's is emulating a character with higher reservation... mainly because victario's itself is such a terrible chest armour, you can't put the fat aura gems in it either because they become generositied and you no longer have the buff. In that case wearing victario's would be like a dedicated investment into mantra of flames, still probably not worth.

Also I know you can get more buffs, but the point is I believe at that point you'd be investing way more than the jewel would grant, and many of those buffs would just not be reliable. For unholy might, pretty much only death's hand is reliable. ACtually, one of my characters this league is a CI crit sunder using assasin using death's hand. You'd need to invest into crit and the 30% physical added as chaos would often be far more significant than just another 5-11 or 2-8 flat fire damage.

The other point I didn't explicitly mention (i only mentioned that I tried getting 9 buffs): the opposite end. Suppose a character can reliably has 4 buffs at a time. I would say this is an above average amount: maybe two auras, one ascendency buff, and one golem. This also means they likely don't have a blasphemy. Is having an additional 25 average base damage to fire ever worth the gem socket over a blue 25% inc damage gem?

About also granting flat damage to spells, while you are correct in that static electricity did in fact grant damage to spells too, that even wouldn't make the gem better among 99% of builds that currently use it (maybe some cast on kill build where they also have significant attack damage would be affected). It would only mean that it becomes an option to more builds (ones that use spells).

Lastly this jewel is a relatively high roll on both stats.

Also I guess if you want to say static electricity is too strong then that changes a lot of the perspectives.

Well one last thing, i guess if you play in fat parties with diverse auras a lot this is good... but really everything is overpowered in parties most of the time anyways.

"

biyte wrote:

Flask effects have long since stopped counting as buffs! This is also true for onslaught and phasing granted from such flasks.

Apologies for the out-dated info!!

So basically you're saying it's not worth building a character around? Fair call - but is it worth including on a character that isn't built around it?

Let's imagine you are a character with high increased damage and attack speed, so you use flat increased damage on gear and from auras and heralds to improve your dps. With a golem, let's say Anger, HoI and HoL, and fortify, you're looking at 5 buffs. That's 40 (on average) flat added dps for your build. Sure, Static electricity can get 60 or 80, but 40 is still pretty strong, and since it's not a threshold jewel you can place it even in non-dex areas. There might be other Jewels that boost your dps more, but if you already have high increased dps, they'd have to be pretty strong Jewels to out-perform 40 flat dmg.

Oh yes please buff this sweet jewel even further - no seriously don't touch it.

I am using Mantra of Flames on my Low Life Incinerater currently in Perandus league and got 11 buffs permanently and 13 almost all the time active (Elemental Overload + Rallying Cry). Onslaught and Phasing are counted as buffs from my current testing, so i use those flasks to get them.

That makes 15 buff effects in total. On Incinerate (gear far from Optimized, missing spell damage and a little cast speed) this one jewel gives me currently a tooltip increase of 2100 damage aka 5250 damage on 3rd stage on a 5-link setup without flasks, Rallying Cry and Elemental Overload!

5250 extra damage for 1 jewel? That is pretty good i would say. What makes this jewel even better is that it scales very well if you are trying to min max in Endgame. About 10k damage added from this jewel alone is achievable without conditional buffs - with conditional buffs it is around 15-17k on 3rd stage (remember when builds do that amount of DPS in total? Good old times *sigh*)



You just have to pick a skill that scales very well with added damage and attack/cast speed and a lot of buffs.

whats so bad about a jewel that gives you flat 2-8 chaos damage to your chaos cheeze build..

and it can poison!

bump

solo - 9 buffs (can reliably go to 11, sometimes 12 - conflux, fortify, and sometimes innervated onslaught when not fighting bosses. Why isn't elemental overload a buff anyways?)


Incinerate (added damage is slightly higher as proportion to base damage)

mantra
vs
24 damage jewel


Flameblast (added damage is slightly lower as proportion to base damage)

mantra
vs
24 damage jewel


Sorry hard to read due to resize, right click image view image for full resolution

I knew this build would be terrible but I didn't care and made it anyways. It's nice having a reservation of single digits in %age for some buffs. It's okay because elemental conflux (and elementalist and flasks in general) carries hard.

My build does have low increased damage though so admittedly the blue jewel is boosting me more than usual. Though the same is true in that I have no added damage on weapon, but my gems are only lvl 17 and 18 respectively (added base damage far more significant)

I hadn't bother reply to the other messages but they are wrong.

-If somebody is getting 5k damage from this it's because they already have like 50k damage.

-Flask effects are not buffs.

-Rallying cry is fair but it's the same as a gem socket investment and you lose flexibility and consistency with other warcries considering the power and many players don't even bother with warcries if their attack/cast speed is high enough as you lose a more significant portion of attack time 'crying'. If you attack and cast slow you won't scale well with mantra of flames anyways. If you do you lose more on investing in warcries.

Incinerate is definitely one of the better gems to use with this. but overall there is not much difference. take a look here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14IOL3_XJPKf5IbbNJOXrVVJ56NskZOKfBuWcmTPHUMg/pubhtml

support effectiness is the flat damage as proportion. Mantra of flames is not there but you can see the overall %age of each support and see how some skills are better with flat added or not. Some are obviously inaccurate or half-assed (lol) such as duration skills ignore those.

redeeming features of this gem:
really powerful at low levels if you can get a lot of buffs since it adds base damage
decent in huge party
really good if you use level 1 gems lol

Edit: forgot to add more actual suggestion
Maybe make so you get increased fire damage for each buff instead. But looking at the design intention being 'mantra of' (non-live mantra of force) doesn't seem to match.

trash build with trash jewel expected result



anything does better

"

biyte wrote:

Spoiler

(sorry resize)

Although character is no dedicated "mantra of flames" character, and i don't even have a (leveled) enlighten gem, but with a random alpha's howl that I got a reduced reservation enchant (purity of fire) and using victario's for non-auras (artic armour, 3 heralds), a golem and tempest shield, there are 9 reliable buffs active. This is with a relatively high roll

(range:
Adds (3–5 to 8–12) Fire Damage to Attacks per Buff on You
Adds (2–3 to 5–8) Fire Damage to Spells per Buff on You)

In short it needs a buff!

My above average roll Mantra grants 45-99 fire to attacks atm...

I've managed to make it a bit better than static electricity.

Which is a problem! Why is something with such a fairly invested setup only a bit better than static electricity? not to mention Mantra of Flames is limited to 1!

don't really want to throw static electricity under the bus here but it's one of the few comparable things ...

Note: Static electricity has so many ways to get 60-70 dex in the radius without even going out of the way to grab 10 dex nodes that don't path to anything. In more than one socket it can grab one notable with 20 dex in, and another socket it can grab other notables with 10 dex.

Static electricity reliably gives 1-120 in just about any build. There is a spot where you can get like 1-160/180 without even grabbing random 10 dex nodes (between acro and aspect of lynx)!

Please make mantra of flames something more build defining or just straight up stronger! Currently it seems to synergize the best with... support characters who absolutely do not need to be granted damage.

Agree, after nerf "buffs" amount it should be buffed.