The Labyrinth is everything I dislike about games in one package.

And it's doubly frustrating because heretofore, PoE hasn't had any such mechanics.

1) Traps/Puzzles. I don't play PoE for traps and puzzles. Yes, I know there are plenty of successful cross genre games. Yes, I know WoW has Pokemon incorporated into it. I just happen to dislike puzzle games.

2) Standing, waiting, and watching isn't fun. PoE is an action game. I don't play OP meta builds, so it's not like I'm spoiled by super-sonic clear speed when I normally play. I played Ranged Attack Totem Barrage last league ffs. I don't enjoy standing in a room and seeing what the traps are doing. I don't enjoy watching the environment get to participate in more movement than I do.

3) Dead ends. While the rest of the game can suffer from this to some extent, since it doesn't suffer from any of the other listed points, it isn't nearly as offensive. Because the Lab DOES suffer from the other things, the dead ends are a force multiplier of frustration.

4) Back tracking. Even without the dead ends, there is a TON of backtracking to do in the Labyrinth.

5) Reset on death. I hate replaying levels of anything. If I lose a mission in Fire Embled I'd rather put the game down for a day than restart the second I fail. While this may seem like a contradiction since I play hardcore toons on occasion in every ARPG I ever play, it's not a contradiction - because I OPT INTO hardcore.

6) I have to leave stuff on the ground. In a loot collection/trading game. Purely antithetical to the core of PoE.

7) It's near-mandatory. And this is coming from someone who usually chides others about using the word 'forced'. While I'll stop short of using the 'f' word, Ascendancy is the namesake of the league for a reason. In the vaal expansion, every part of it was opt-in, and none of it felt mandatory. This is the polar opposite.

8) Overall length. Spent a total of 3 hours attempting the Labyrinth. I've seen Izaro once. I anticipated that since the Labarinth was the only thing-to-do being added during Ascendancy it would be way too long as it attempted to justify its existence. I was right.

Thankfully I'm playing a build that really only wants 2 of the ascendancy points to make the build work.

I'll be picking up my 2 Ascendancy points some other day, probably when I'm over level 80. And I'm never touching the Lab again. Huge disappointment.

*Edit*

In retrospect, I'm very happy with the course this thread took. I'd also like to posit a few changes that I think could improve the experience of the Labyrinth, while retaining a lot of the challenge. As of the edit, there were 5 pages of responses, so potential discussion of things post edit may start there.

1) They could change the ratio of traps to fighting, and weight it a bit more toward the fighting. The puzzle aspect is pretty much there to stay I suppose. It is the 'labyrinth' after all.

2) This would probably improve through experience (concession). BUT as a counterpoint to that concession, if the layout changes every day, and I have no desire to do this twice ever, let alone twice in one day, that doesn't really apply to me :P

3 & 4) Dead ends & backtracking. Unavoidable - but will be less frustrating if change number 5 happens.

5) Reset on Death. Either you keep your keys and go back to the beginning, or checkpoints at Izaro. Or both, I'd be fine with both.

6) Leaving loot behind. Put a static portal at the map markers that you can only use if you are on full hp - they take you to a vendor that is self contained within the labyrinth so you can use your stash, vendor, but your flasks don't reset.

7) It's too late for number 7. This was settled the moment they decided to make the Labyrinth the be-all end-all of Ascendancy. Unless they wanted to give you your first two for free. Which wouldn't be as bad as it sounds actually, since the truly casual players don't even make it to maps in the average league, right? Those players are going to be shut-out of Ascendancy content unless they want to plug away for the duration of the league. While GGG are in ways forever beholden to their earliest contributors, they may find that they are more immediately beholden to expanding their total player pool (a.k.a. the 'new player experience').

8) Hard to compromise on this without devaluing the 'exploration' part of the experience. Although exploring could be quite fun if death wasn't a full and hard reset.

A big-picture way to solve a lot of my issues would be this:

Make the trials harder.

2 AP for beating normal trials, the labyrinth is just for the enchant.
2 AP for beating cruel lab, but make cruel lab 1/3 of the current lab.
2 AP for beating merc lab, keep it exactly as it is.

This smoother curve would be much more friendly to new/casual players, but would still allow anyone who wants to, to challenge themselves in merciless (which imo, is pretty consistent with how a lot of content in this game already works).

Edit: edited the title, how tf did I click this thread a million times and not notice a typo in the title fml.

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innervation wrote:

7) It's near-mandatory. And this is coming from someone who usually chides others about using the word 'forced'. While I'll stop short of using the 'f' word, Ascendancy is the namesake of the league for a reason. In the vaal expansion, every part of it was opt-in, and none of it felt mandatory. This is the polar opposite.

3 times... It is nearly nothing.

"

Frankenberry wrote:

"

innervation wrote:

7) It's near-mandatory. And this is coming from someone who usually chides others about using the word 'forced'. While I'll stop short of using the 'f' word, Ascendancy is the namesake of the league for a reason. In the vaal expansion, every part of it was opt-in, and none of it felt mandatory. This is the polar opposite.

3 times... It is nearly nothing.

are you agreeing or disagreeing? I totally agree with this dude. i think the labrynth is just shit. and you disagree make a fine point or just stfu cuz u make no sense

completely agree with op.
This labryinth drives me crazy.
lag twice into a trap and dead on resync. yea soo much fun to redo a boring section. watching traps.
Stick to what the game is and stop trying to be everything.
while you are at it...
Fire the idiot who designed this place and thought it should be an enitre act length with no saves.

I think what he's saying is that I/we 'only' have to do it 3 times. Which isn't terribly honest, because it's 3 times, per every character I want to play from this point forward.

Despite that, this thread is for the developers, not other players. I don't care if the first guy agrees or not, I'm not here to argue with him. If he wants to like it, good on him. This post is why it's not fun for me, and occasionally how the Lab adds things that don't make sense for an ARPG (primarily the leaving loot behind, and having to sit out the action points) - which is bad design - unless they're trying to redefine their game or move it in a different direction.

Everyone's experience will vary, but my experience is 3 hours with nothing to show for it, frustrated for most of the time, and sapped of my desire to play at all by the end of it.

Complete opposite to my feelings. I hate the aspect of PoE that is brainless, speed-based and little more than a gear check fueled by trading and lucky drops. The Labyrinth is engaging, immersive and stimulating for me. I think the traps are well-implemented, the maze itself REALLY feels like a maze, the boss is integrated into every aspect of the maze (the acquisition of devices, for example), and the backtracking...well, it's a maze. It's a pretty shitty maze if you don't have to backtrack.

But your feedback is totally legitimate. I read it less as a criticism of the Labyrinth's implementation and more as an admission that you just don't like it, and a clear breakdown of what you don't like about it. And that's fair enough.

I disagree that it's near mandatory however. The game's difficulty hasn't been touched as a result of Ascendancy. You can do everything you did before. But if you want that extra power, you take that extra challenge. I think that's a fair trade-off.

(standard-only-issue)

the trials - each of my XX standard characters has to waste ~15+ mins do do the 'trials' that are boring already on the first go and are downright infuriating on the 5th+

it is a time sink, one of the worst type possible



the labyrinth itself gives a good reward (enchants) one can skip but also gives something mandatory (passive points)

ive completed it few times already and i know that 'playing' it wont be the case - it will be 'skip all that is skipable and run'

the 'fun' it provides is questionable, the loot rewards are better in maps (yes they are) and the unpredictible Izaro fight seals the deal - you have to do it as many times as possible because that fight is - AS ALWAYS - overtuned



in general: ascendancy (classes) 9/10, labyrinth 2/10

"

Complete opposite to my feelings. I hate the aspect of PoE that is brainless, speed-based and little more than a gear check fueled by trading and lucky drops. The Labyrinth is engaging, immersive and stimulating for me. I think the traps are well-implemented, the maze itself REALLY feels like a maze, the boss is integrated into every aspect of the maze (the acquisition of devices, for example), and the backtracking...well, it's a maze. It's a pretty shitty maze if you don't have to backtrack.

But your feedback is totally legitimate. I read it less as a criticism of the Labyrinth's implementation and more as an admission that you just don't like it, and a clear breakdown of what you don't like about it. And that's fair enough.

I disagree that it's near mandatory however. The game's difficulty hasn't been touched as a result of Ascendancy. You can do everything you did before. But if you want that extra power, you take that extra challenge. I think that's a fair trade-off.

Thanks for fostering some real discussion.

I'll grant them that the boss is well designed and interesting.

To go right to the mandatory topic, no, it's really not close to mandatory except in this sense: In today's modern always-online MMO-ARPG, devs feel the need to give people a reason to come back. I would have never touched Diablo 3 again if they hadn't done paragons and eventually seasons. While I enjoy PoE more than that other game for what it offers at the core level of experiencing an ARPG, I still come back primarily for the new content.

I want to experience the game again, in a new way, from level 1-90 (ish). The labyrinth, and by extension, Ascendancies, are the only new things they've put into the game in 4 months. It's a total take-it-or-leave-it experience, and when that falls flat, like it seems to have for me, it sucks =/

I'm glad I rolled a build that's using the new skills, and I'm glad that Perandus is fun. Because that's enough novelty to overcome my overwhelmingly negative impressions of the Lab. (and on that note, I'll have to remember to make a positive feedback thread about those things, gj devs!)

I don't understand what kind of game Poe is trying to be right now. Poe doesn't have a flashy physics system, so running around these traps feels like Im playing some 10 year old game. I didnt mind the lack of flash while I was grinding for gear and levels, but this dodging trap nonsense in a point and click game that lags once and a while was a horrible idea.

Not to mention the map we use to navigate with is horrible and needs an overhaul more than ever. We have to backtrack constantly in the labyrinth and this map is just giving me a head ache.

I feel the same way, not sure what they were thinking. At least they could of given us maps that move foreward, instead of this dead end bs. Mobs deal 1 damage, untargetable traps deal a % of your hp. Works great in normal mode with all the clutter maps.

Hit a lever, use a key, stupid.